spoolin51

Dan, what class are you in?

DanR

I mainly run PCA so run G class. Spoilers are free (within certain size restrictions) but wings are a prepared mod and therefore a class bump. A wing is deffined as anything with a leading edge that air can pass under. All is not lost though as a creative site sponser may be working on options for us

Dwane

Reviving this thread for more pictures and feedback.
Question: If mounting the wing to the back of the hatch and top of bumper...wouldn't that be tied into the chassis?

333pg333

Few different ways of doing it, but tying it into the chassis is a good idea if you can do it. On my original setup it was tied into a constructed frame that then bolted to the floor of the rear hatch along the frame rails. The wing attached through the lexan.

On the incoming larger wing it's tied into some extra tubing attached to the frame rails. This will need to be much stronger than the previous setup as the wing will generate a lot more downforce. The uprights will be coming through beside the number plate.Don't have many pics yet.

Dubai944

See my wing mount thread for yet another way of doing it.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ing-mount.html

333pg333

That looks a good way of mounting it Steve and something we considered, but we went with what we did to get them higher and more rearward. Probably come back to bite me with too much understeer. Guess we'll have to find out.

TonyG

With that wing mazda miatas will be passing you down the long straights... :-)

Why so much wing?

Even with a simple single element 996 Cup Wing (which is almost trivial in comparison), the back end of my car is stuck down and impossible to slide at speeds over 125mph... even with a corded rear tire.

There is so much down force that its not only the issue of understeer... but it really affects top end acceleration and top end speed as well. I'm almost running my wing flat and it still has almost too much rear grip and a ton of drag.

On my new car I'm moving toward the 997 cup style wing which has even less down force.

Just saying...

TonyG

333pg333

Well you maybe right. Will need to be tested, but here are bullet points;

-Wing designed by Simon McBeath with the knowledge of what car it's going on.
-Can be run as twin and single element at various a.o.a.
-Our tracks are smaller/tighter than the ones you run on.
-Might be overcautious but don't want repeat of rear end stepping out to cause big crash.
-New car will be quite different from old one with a bunch more aero and a lot more power.
-Fastest cars at our local track are Time Attack cars with a lot more aero than a Cup Car.
These cars are 5+ seconds quicker than a Cup car and they're on R spec rubber!!
This car was did a 1:25 flat on it's first real outing and on Hankook Z221s. The fastest Aussie V8s did a high 1:27 in qualifying on full slicks.

TonyG

Yeah but those time attack cars are making huge power and only run a couple of laps at a time. The Aussie V8 Supercars are running at WOT for hours on end. Big difference. And they are power limited. And they are probably heavier as well. And... they are not running on a super soft tire to qualify because they have to run the same tire during the race whereas the time attack car is running the softest tire they can get. Apples to Oranges.

Take a time attack car in the trim you see them competing in and see how many laps they would make it on a 100F day ..... :-) Not many.

And the thing about cup cars is that just because someone beats one doesn't mean a thing. I beat them all day long in my street legal V8 944. But that's because they can't drive. You put a fast pro in on new slicks and they would destroy the V8 944 by a large margin (which is exactly why I'm building the car I'm building now).

Anyway... I can tell you that a few degrees in AOA on my single element 996 cup wing and it can make as much as a 7mph difference down the straights at WSIR which means the difference between say, 140mph and 147mph over a 1/2 mile straight entered into at about 100mph. And that's a TON.

What I do know is that with the cup car wing elements, even at a very mild AOA, it's almost impossible to get the back end to come around at anything over 120mph (even with bad rear tires).

I'd be curious about how much stiffer you have to spring the car running aero like that (assuming you could get enough aero on the front to balance it out) and the affect that would have on the low/med speed handling.

As far as your crash goes... I looked at the video over and over. There was clearly something very wrong with the car setup for it to do what it did. And I hope after that you get a real seat with a halo and a Hans. You body should have never flopped over like it did when you hit the tires. You're lucky you didn't get seriously hurt.

TonyG

Lemming

Patrick, you will need to add one hellova front splitter to balance that out. Should be good for the few laps in time trials on the shorter/tighter courses that you run.

To all, make sure that the wing is mounted solidly, I had mine nearly come off at 140 mph (T9 at Road Atlanta).

333pg333

Sure, understood about the differences between the T/A cars and other 'real racecars' but essentially this is the type of event I will be running next season..or attempt to be running budget allowing.

While the V8s are limited by wheel sizes and tyre compounds, they're also bloody fast and still would have a pretty decent power to weight ratio plus very stiff chassis. I'm using pro drivers in both the V8s and Cups when comparing times.

I hear you on the speed/drag/downforce issues. My belief is that this wing will be designed better than any aftermarket one out there. I'm not comparing to the factory but perhaps the Cup Cars run with a limitation on aero too and would want to run a dual element too if they were allowed?

Yes, the spring rate will need to be upped. Not sure quite by how much and only testing will prove it.

As for the crash, I don't blame the lack of downforce for it, although having more than just a hoop spoiler would have been a lot better. The crash happened due to the rear inside wheel lifting off the deck with a bit of downforce and possibly fluids from the car in front contributing. Agreed on all safety aspects. Have Hans and Cobra halo at the ready.

333pg333

Hey btw, did you ever wind up using slicks on your old car? I am interested in how much difference there is suspension wise between using R specs and slicks. I assume having to change springs at least but some people have said they didn't.

TonyG

There are pros... and there are pros. Go look at any AMLS race. Most are pros that are paying to drive. The top 1/4 - 1/3 are being paid to drive. And the differences is night and day. I race with several of the paid pros. And they definitely earn their money.

The some of the top time attack cars are running like 1000RWHP (which is WAY more than the V8 cars are allowed to run). So yeah... they can drag a wing like that around. Not me. At 460RWHP... a factory cup car single element can really slow down my car with just few excess degrees of angle. I can only imagine what a that huge (looks almost like an F1 wing) wing will do to your top end.

I studied your crash. And you barely turned in and he car was starting to swap ends. All I can say is that you should be able to get the car very neutral even with out a big wing. A ton of 944 spec racers run without big wings and they are very neutral at the limit.

As far as cup car aero limits go.... I have no idea. But I think that the real benefit of the huge aero would be at lower speeds as the smaller wings stick the car amazingly well (over 120mph). So I can see where the advantage would lie at speeds from 75mph-110mph range... but the top end penalty would be huge (unless you were running 1000RWHP....).

TonyG

TonyG

No I didn't. Because I didn't feel that I was close enough in lap times to the leaders to justify the added cost. At $1800/set with 4 competitive heat cycles per set, you need to be able to be in a position to win. I was close.. but not close enough.

I am however, going to set the new car up on 18" 315 NT01 tires. This because they are relatively cheap to use to setup purposes. Plus since they are a R compound tire, at my HP, I can run 460lbs less than I can if I run slicks. So since the car is going to be so much lighter with far better brakes and suspension, I'm going to see if I can lap with NT01's fast enough to win. If not, then I'll have to detune/add weight and go to slicks (330's on all 4 corners).

TonyG

Dubai944

I can't imagine needing anything bigger than the wing I am running now on a circuit car. Without the wing my car was always nicely balanced with just a subtle tendency to oversteer the way I used to set it up.

Even with the new wing at 8 degrees the rear end is so much more planted and balance has moved to understeer. I have dropped the front end slightly to bring the balance back to where I like it. I can go to 14 degrees so there is more downforce than I will ever need without going to a bigger wing, even if I push the power levels up a fair bit higher.

Wings are no different than springs or tires or anything else. You need the right amount to balance the weight and power level of the car, no more.