Originally Posted by TonyG

Patrick,

I was one of the Purists.

This car was the sister car to my other red 951 which had considerable development (http://www.tonygarcia.org/red-951-2.html) time invested.

This car was almost identical except that it had a 2.85L engine. Brand new, fully installed, with a super trick expensive turbo, full SFR plumbing, JME top end, and ALL the other goodies money could buy, etc... all assembled and installed in the car with the exception of the intake manifold.

The car was never started when the decision was made to pull the new motor and do the LS1 conversion.

Rest assured, I thought it was the most stupid thing I had ever heard of. There were plenty of arguments that followed. It wasn't pretty.

Long story short, the conversion got done. And a bunch of money was thrown at it.

We drove it and it handled like crap and the brakes were dangerous.

The car sat for a year.

I decided to take control of the project and get it fully sorted/developed out.

It took a while, but I had to get power brakes figured out since the conversion won't allow (due to clearance issues) the use of the vacuum brake booster. That meant going hydraulic assist which hadn't been done on one of these conversions. And that took a bunch of time to get dialed in and track worthy. But... it is now. And the brakes are fantastic.

The handling was also bad. It was oversteering in a bad way. That was easier to figure out and dial in (thanks to the full assortment of goodies from Racers Edge), an expensive alignment machine, and a LOT more rubber.

In the end, the car turned out to be truly great sports car. Everybody that drives it says pretty much the same thing. "Wow" "Porsche should have done a V8 in the 944". It feels so natural. It doesn't over power the chassis or brakes. And, at least at this power level, feels very much OEM. And that's what makes the conversion so good.


And... I've got a Cayenne twin turbo V8 with harness and brain that I was thinking about installing to make it a "pure Porsche". But why? It is too physically wide which would require a ton of work to do a partial tube frame to get the necessary clearance. For what? So that it would be legal to race in the POC against factory Porsche Cup Cars? Sorry... but unless there's prize money involved... it's just not worth it. Plus, no matter how much power you give a 944 chassis, it will never stay up with a factory cup car (assuming equal drivers obviously). So... there's no point and it has become non-issue.

But to go and have fun in (which is what we all do here since we don't make our money driving race cars), you can't beat it in terms of the performance/cost ratio. Not to mention the sheer fun factor... (it's the most fun sports car I've ever driven).



TonyG

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Just to clarify Tony, are you saying that you had 2 cars and one with the 2.85L motor with all the trick bits but you didn't start the motor in this car?? So you sold either the motor or car or both and built the hybrid?

I'm interested in the brake setup too. Do you think this is something that could be adapted to any 951 given that the clearances must be better without the V8?
In what way is the current brake setup superior to the 951? I have never been convinced of the 951s brakes and have researched how to improve them without a lot of success. This sounds interesting.

Originally Posted by TonyG

And... I've got a Cayenne twin turbo V8 with harness and brain that I was thinking about installing to make it a "pure Porsche".

Originally Posted by TonyG

Yes. There were 2 cars. Both had similar engines with the exception of the displacement. And yes, the 2.85L was never started. The engine was pulled and it, and everything turbo related on that car, was sold as a package to a person in Canada.


The deal with the brakes is that the vacuum booster will not fit with the V8 engine installed. The conversion kit from Renegade Hybrids only gives you a little stand-off plate to basically reuse the stock brake master cylinder but with no vacuum power assist.

And it's a joke.


The only thing that will physically fit is a hydraulic assist setup. That's why I used it.

The hydraulic assist is not better or worse than the vacuum setup. The deal is getting it dialed in to be as good as the stock setup..... that's what takes work.

In the process I managed to get the brakes to work as good as they're ever gonna get on a car without ABS.

What's the problem with your brakes?


TonyG

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Well it sounds like both you and DVC / Travis have their brakes sorted. I have always found mine to have too much pedal travel and I'm not alone. I have canvassed opinions from all over the world and there are quite a few people who find their 951/968 brakes a bit on the spongy side. I have had a few incidents of pedal to the floor on the track, although this was more in the past than recently. My setup is direct to rotor venting/ducting, 928GTS discs, Big Reds, s/s braideds, SFR fluid, new M/C, rear bias valve, PFC pads (now Pagid Blues), and yes, plenty of bleeding. To be fair I have made these mods over time and I've not been able to track the car much at all on the full above-mentioned list, but I've had most of them in when tracking and really I would like a firmer pedal that requires less travel to retard. People have always said that getting into a decent 911 after one of ours cars you really notice how much better the brakes feel in the 911/993/964/996/997. Then there is the school of thought that by going up in caliper (therefore piston) size, you need to increase the size of the Master/Slave combo, otherwise you can actually increase the pedal travel. The only other person who I've seen write this is Sam Lin on the 951 forum, but trying to engage him on discussion proved fruitless however he said that a M/C from a 7 series BMW from the '90s was the same fit, but larger and therefore could be the answer. I have searched for one of these but the suppliers don't want to know me (A.T.E.). Ski thought he might have one somewhere but hasn't been in the position to confirm this yet. My belief is that going up to one of these will give me that firmer, shorter travel that I desire even though it should require more effort to induce the same stopping power. I'm happy to find out. There's another school of thought that suggest that ABS or the factory version can't cope with repeated hard stops and basically fails, eventuating in no pedal. I'm not sure this is what I've experienced as you don't get such rapid, repeated hard braking occasions, nor have I felt the ABS kick in very many times on the track so not sure if this is the case.
Anyway, if there's anyone with further ideas feel free to expound or PM me. Thanks.

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Well it sounds like both you and DVC / Travis have their brakes sorted. I have always found mine to have too much pedal travel and I'm not alone. I have canvassed opinions from all over the world and there are quite a few people who find their 951/968 brakes a bit on the spongy side. I have had a few incidents of pedal to the floor on the track, although this was more in the past than recently. My setup is direct to rotor venting/ducting, 928GTS discs, Big Reds, s/s braideds, SFR fluid, new M/C, rear bias valve, PFC pads (now Pagid Blues), and yes, plenty of bleeding. To be fair I have made these mods over time and I've not been able to track the car much at all on the full above-mentioned list, but I've had most of them in when tracking and really I would like a firmer pedal that requires less travel to retard. People have always said that getting into a decent 911 after one of ours cars you really notice how much better the brakes feel in the 911/993/964/996/997. Then there is the school of thought that by going up in caliper (therefore piston) size, you need to increase the size of the Master/Slave combo, otherwise you can actually increase the pedal travel. The only other person who I've seen write this is Sam Lin on the 951 forum, but trying to engage him on discussion proved fruitless however he said that a M/C from a 7 series BMW from the '90s was the same fit, but larger and therefore could be the answer. I have searched for one of these but the suppliers don't want to know me (A.T.E.). Ski thought he might have one somewhere but hasn't been in the position to confirm this yet. My belief is that going up to one of these will give me that firmer, shorter travel that I desire even though it should require more effort to induce the same stopping power. I'm happy to find out. There's another school of thought that suggest that ABS or the factory version can't cope with repeated hard stops and basically fails, eventuating in no pedal. I'm not sure this is what I've experienced as you don't get such rapid, repeated hard braking occasions, nor have I felt the ABS kick in very many times on the track so not sure if this is the case.
Anyway, if there's anyone with further ideas feel free to expound or PM me. Thanks.

Originally Posted by TonyG

Oh yeah... one more thing. I'm assuming you're using a power bleeder. Make sure you bleed at the master cylinder as well as the brake calipers.


TonyG

Originally Posted by 333pg333

TonyG"

Tony, I have thought of that. By changing the fulcrum would it have a favourable effect on my situation? S'pose it's a cheap fix and worth a try. However if it's a matter of the brake travel being too long due to hydraulic pressures, would this change?

Originally Posted by 333pg333

The pads I was using initially were EBC.

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Also there is a school of thought that believes that RHD cars are more susceptible to longer brake travel due to the extra distance of the hydraulics.