Balance Shaft removal for street use.
12-21-2007, 11:38 AM
#32
Nordschleife Master
"The loss of power is from a crank case pressure leak not an oil leak"??????
Sorry I did not know that the balance shaft controlled the combustion area, maybe you could assist us further Fishey. For the record, you may have experience on these engines. Experience is not always a proof of competeance.
Sorry I did not know that the balance shaft controlled the combustion area, maybe you could assist us further Fishey. For the record, you may have experience on these engines. Experience is not always a proof of competeance.
The crank case is connect to the AOS.
The AOS is connected to the Intake.
The Intake is connected to the motor.
Now, how and why does this effect power? Good Question with a few reasons.
1. Crankcase leak means you are getting unmetered air past the AFM and this in turn throws off your tune.
2. Crankcase leak means you are increasing flow from the crankcase into the intake. This means you are increasing oil vapor flow into the intake as well. As we know oil doesn't help produce HP.
3. Crankcase leak means that the pressure in your crankcase is now higher then it was previously with the sealed crankcase.
Also, as mentioned in number 2 increased intake oil means decreased oil vapor in the crank case. This as documented in racing can have catastrophic results on the wrist pin I have never seen it but from what I understand it is possible.
-Your Pal
Fishey
12-21-2007, 11:54 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
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I made a smart remark to special tool but I am sick of waiting on a response so let me break it down for you on a stock car.
The crank case is connect to the AOS.
The AOS is connected to the Intake.
The Intake is connected to the motor.
Now, how and why does this effect power? Good Question with a few reasons.
1. Crankcase leak means you are getting unmetered air past the AFM and this in turn throws off your tune.
2. Crankcase leak means you are increasing flow from the crankcase into the intake. This means you are increasing oil vapor flow into the intake as well. As we know oil doesn't help produce HP.
3. Crankcase leak means that the pressure in your crankcase is now higher then it was previously with the sealed crankcase.
Also, as mentioned in number 2 increased intake oil means decreased oil vapor in the crank case. This as documented in racing can have catastrophic results on the wrist pin I have never seen it but from what I understand it is possible.
-Your Pal
Fishey
The crank case is connect to the AOS.
The AOS is connected to the Intake.
The Intake is connected to the motor.
Now, how and why does this effect power? Good Question with a few reasons.
1. Crankcase leak means you are getting unmetered air past the AFM and this in turn throws off your tune.
2. Crankcase leak means you are increasing flow from the crankcase into the intake. This means you are increasing oil vapor flow into the intake as well. As we know oil doesn't help produce HP.
3. Crankcase leak means that the pressure in your crankcase is now higher then it was previously with the sealed crankcase.
Also, as mentioned in number 2 increased intake oil means decreased oil vapor in the crank case. This as documented in racing can have catastrophic results on the wrist pin I have never seen it but from what I understand it is possible.
-Your Pal
Fishey
However we were talking about a seal leaking on the balance shaft housing which is not connected to the air oil seperator or the crankcase (save for being bolted to it as an apendage and having an oil supply fed to it. There is no vacuum from the balance shaft housing so it can't suck air in. there is only pressure that can leak oil outwards.
So again humour me please!! tell me where I lose power by a leaking balance shaft o ring?
For the record if you fit a properly thought out catch tank you can aleviate the problems you mention due to oil vapour reducing the octane rating of your fuel by entering the inlet plenum unmetered from the AOS
12-21-2007, 01:15 PM
#34
Nordschleife Master
Agree 100%
However we were talking about a seal leaking on the balance shaft housing which is not connected to the air oil seperator or the crankcase (save for being bolted to it as an apendage and having an oil supply fed to it. There is no vacuum from the balance shaft housing so it can't suck air in. there is only pressure that can leak oil outwards.
So again humour me please!! tell me where I lose power by a leaking balance shaft o ring?
For the record if you fit a properly thought out catch tank you can aleviate the problems you mention due to oil vapour reducing the octane rating of your fuel by entering the inlet plenum unmetered from the AOS
However we were talking about a seal leaking on the balance shaft housing which is not connected to the air oil seperator or the crankcase (save for being bolted to it as an apendage and having an oil supply fed to it. There is no vacuum from the balance shaft housing so it can't suck air in. there is only pressure that can leak oil outwards.
So again humour me please!! tell me where I lose power by a leaking balance shaft o ring?
For the record if you fit a properly thought out catch tank you can aleviate the problems you mention due to oil vapour reducing the octane rating of your fuel by entering the inlet plenum unmetered from the AOS
2. Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KrfcnCgeyE
3. In video I say AOS goes to intake manifold it doesn't it goes to the intake pre-throttlebody but post AFM. (So it always has suction)
4. So, I continue on saying that maintance is easier without balance shafts.
5. Glad to see you agree 100% with what I am saying about a crankcase leak.
6. You can add a breather but most people don't run them on a street car you want to be emissions legal that means no breather.
Your Pal
-Fishey
12-21-2007, 02:28 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Hand bone, Hambone, Bad Hone? Is it code? (Cue Capn Kirk voice)
"It must be his code...must break the code of the Fishman, vital for all aboard and the survival of the Enterprise for me to break the code...Spock, Bones...Anything?"
12-22-2007, 06:48 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Yep well done on the Vid Mr Fish. If it's that obvious why hasn't it been spoken of before...or has it? See who agrees and disagrees then.
12-22-2007, 07:11 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
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I personally think that that side of the crankcase will produce pressure not vacuum so if the seal goes it will **** out oil not suck vacuum.;
the other side of it is that I still do not see that deleting the balance shafts is a great thing to do for a street car. On a race car where the engine spends most of its time "on cam" between certain rev ranges I can see merit as you can dynamically balance most of the harmonics out. Street cars don't run like this though........... well without a state trooper chasing them! :^)
The other solution to Harmonics is to fit a fluid harmonic damper on the crank. We do this on 4.2 straight 6 jag engines when we stroke them to 4.5
Or leave the balance shafts there and look after them, Porsche fitted them for good reason.
the other side of it is that I still do not see that deleting the balance shafts is a great thing to do for a street car. On a race car where the engine spends most of its time "on cam" between certain rev ranges I can see merit as you can dynamically balance most of the harmonics out. Street cars don't run like this though........... well without a state trooper chasing them! :^)
The other solution to Harmonics is to fit a fluid harmonic damper on the crank. We do this on 4.2 straight 6 jag engines when we stroke them to 4.5
Or leave the balance shafts there and look after them, Porsche fitted them for good reason.
12-22-2007, 07:21 PM
#39
Nordschleife Master
I personally think that that side of the crankcase will produce pressure not vacuum so if the seal goes it will **** out oil not suck vacuum.;
the other side of it is that I still do not see that deleting the balance shafts is a great thing to do for a street car. On a race car where the engine spends most of its time "on cam" between certain rev ranges I can see merit as you can dynamically balance most of the harmonics out. Street cars don't run like this though........... well without a state trooper chasing them! :^)
The other solution to Harmonics is to fit a fluid harmonic damper on the crank. We do this on 4.2 straight 6 jag engines when we stroke them to 4.5
Or leave the balance shafts there and look after them, Porsche fitted them for good reason.
the other side of it is that I still do not see that deleting the balance shafts is a great thing to do for a street car. On a race car where the engine spends most of its time "on cam" between certain rev ranges I can see merit as you can dynamically balance most of the harmonics out. Street cars don't run like this though........... well without a state trooper chasing them! :^)
The other solution to Harmonics is to fit a fluid harmonic damper on the crank. We do this on 4.2 straight 6 jag engines when we stroke them to 4.5
Or leave the balance shafts there and look after them, Porsche fitted them for good reason.
-Your Pal
Fishey
12-24-2007, 10:27 AM
#41
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Some of us gave up. He has some correct points but then he has some odd reasons.
Air leaks are bad – so than just fix them. It will take the same effort to fix the air leak (actually less effort) as it will to delete the balance shaft. Fix the balance shafts and you are good for another 20 years!
Oil leaks are bad – see above.
To touch on a couple of earlier comments – the balance shafts have nothing to do with the crank balance. If you lighten the crank it does not change the need for a balance shaft. If you change the piston weight then you may need to rethink the balance shaft ‘imbalance’ – the same goes for stroking.
Air leaks are bad – so than just fix them. It will take the same effort to fix the air leak (actually less effort) as it will to delete the balance shaft. Fix the balance shafts and you are good for another 20 years!
Oil leaks are bad – see above.
To touch on a couple of earlier comments – the balance shafts have nothing to do with the crank balance. If you lighten the crank it does not change the need for a balance shaft. If you change the piston weight then you may need to rethink the balance shaft ‘imbalance’ – the same goes for stroking.
12-24-2007, 01:20 PM
#42
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So with my engine being against the rule, smooth and not falling apart after 50k miles, am I just lucky ?
Not saying it is better to run without the balance shafts, but I seem to be doing fine, is it the piston/rod change ?
Not saying it is better to run without the balance shafts, but I seem to be doing fine, is it the piston/rod change ?
12-24-2007, 02:46 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
I heard this guy took out his balance shafts...
12-24-2007, 05:45 PM
#45
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Guys,
I only listen to people who have experience behind them when it comes to taking advice.
David Floyd please exclude yourself from the following. You have developed a mighty fine engine that runs well without ballance shafts but I am sure you would not advocate to all.
So lets see what the experts say.
Scott Gomes did not recommend it for a street car in 2005 when I emailed him regarding his balance shaft delete kit
Albert Broadfoot advocates a lightweight balance shaft for racing with one weight removed
Lindsey Racing do not advocate removing balance shafts for street cars
Chris White does not advocate removing balance shafts
Vitesse racing - John advised me that it would cause more problems in 2006 when I asked about a number of possible options
JME told me that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages
Yes it is possible to get away without the balance shafts but not for all.
I think it is irresponsible for Fishey to advocate that everybody does away with balance shafts to cut down on maintenance.......... Sorry Fishey, it may work for you but are you going to send everybody a new engine if they crack an oil pick up pipe or similar harmonic based fatigue?
As Chris White says, they do not take much maintaining and give a whole heap of protection.
I can understand David F doing it to prove a point, and hats off. I just don't think it is a solution that should be sold to all.
But again this is a debating forum and everybody has a voice. I think it is interesting that Fishey does not own a Turbo but finds more fun posting on here instead of the NA board. Its a free world though!
I only listen to people who have experience behind them when it comes to taking advice.
David Floyd please exclude yourself from the following. You have developed a mighty fine engine that runs well without ballance shafts but I am sure you would not advocate to all.
So lets see what the experts say.
Scott Gomes did not recommend it for a street car in 2005 when I emailed him regarding his balance shaft delete kit
Albert Broadfoot advocates a lightweight balance shaft for racing with one weight removed
Lindsey Racing do not advocate removing balance shafts for street cars
Chris White does not advocate removing balance shafts
Vitesse racing - John advised me that it would cause more problems in 2006 when I asked about a number of possible options
JME told me that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages
Yes it is possible to get away without the balance shafts but not for all.
I think it is irresponsible for Fishey to advocate that everybody does away with balance shafts to cut down on maintenance.......... Sorry Fishey, it may work for you but are you going to send everybody a new engine if they crack an oil pick up pipe or similar harmonic based fatigue?
As Chris White says, they do not take much maintaining and give a whole heap of protection.
I can understand David F doing it to prove a point, and hats off. I just don't think it is a solution that should be sold to all.
But again this is a debating forum and everybody has a voice. I think it is interesting that Fishey does not own a Turbo but finds more fun posting on here instead of the NA board. Its a free world though!