boston951

I have submitted the ZDDP questions to the manufacturer and will post the reply when received.

333pg333

Valvoline racing 25w/60.

pk951

Here is more info at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

ehall

First. I was trying to help you out. No panties wadded but yours.
Second. "So are all the other Agip motor oils inferior becasue they are lacking ZDDP?" I never made such a statement, you asked a question that presumes innacurately.
Third " All but the Agip 4T line are using the new lousy U.S. standard?" There is no way in hell you could get that from anything I wrote.
Fourth "Would Agip Super 4T 15W-50 be a decent choice for a non synthetic motor oil? I believe that it still is up to the European standard as it is part of the 4T line." Yes. and Yes.
Finally, as I stated earlier, some are formulated to the API standard, which contains significantly less zinc (ZDDP product), others are European formulas. The European formulas don't follow the new crap standards,(API) which were mostly created to increase oil company profits in the U.S.

boston951

Thanks pk951.

There was not much on Agip oil at bobistheoilguy.com, but I thought that this post reply was interesting. I thought that Agip was more well known in Europe.

Quote:
"... moreover Agip has not a big name here in Italy...."

Another poster stated:
"Valvoline's VR1 10w30 (non sythetic)...bottle states it has extra ZDDP in it."

The Valvoline VR1 sounds like the non-synthetic to take a closer look at.

ehall

Oil is Killing our Cars
By
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc. www.ForeignPartsPositively.com
360-882-3596

Oil is Killing our cars Part I

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars.


To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.


Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”.


Next question: Now what do we do?


From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam): “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles.


From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).


From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need!


From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.


From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.


Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce.


Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago.


For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline.



If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge.

ehall

Oil is Killing our cars Part II

Last month"s report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you compare one month"s article with their next month"s article! They are all ending up supporting our report.


Now for the latest report:

#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle, these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable. (See third article to amend this!)

#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets. (SEE THIRD ARTICLE...This oil is NOT now recommended by Castrol)

#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.

#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation" oils that we cannot use.

#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today"s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don"t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in all diesel engines.

Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.


First is that there is a problem, lack of ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl DithioPhosphate) in modern oils kills at least our cams and tappets There seems to be no known alternative.

Second, our cars are a small percentage of the total market and BIG Corporate, the American Petroleum Institute and possibly government have made decisions that are detrimental to our cars. This problem isn"t going away.

Third, that many oil companies may have products that will continue to function well in our cars. Castrol, Redline, Valvoline, Mobil, Amsoil and others have now commented on my original article and are making suggestions. For some companies they are offering short lists of "acceptable" oils, others just one. One company has responded without any substantive information in a two-page "bulletin". By their account all their oils are superior and applicable. This is typical of most larger companies.

Fourth, some oil manufacturers are pointing to metallurgy, blaming poorly built cams and followers. This may have some validity but the bottom line is that there has been a big increase in failures with products that have been on the market with identical products that are now having greatly increased failures. To me the bottom line is, if the lubricants are working there is no contact between surfaces, it shouldn"t matter what the materials are, within reason.

boston951

This is not a Positive response, nor helpfull. Kindly unbunch panties here seems appropriate given your reply regarding "bad assumptions."

This is where the language came from.

No offense was intended. To the contratry, I used your prior language to give my post some congruency.

eHall, you have some great knowledge to share and I do appreciate you trying to help. My post contained questions, not statements of fact. All questions were based upon prior posts that may be interpreted one way or another. Asking for clarification is not making bad assumptions. Rather, to not ask and assume....

I know you love the 4T Racing Synth, but that will not be an option for my car. The manu is not in the USA so the new standards may not affect the motor oils in their line. So, to ask for more info seems like the right thing to do in this instance.

Your fourth response is really all that I was looking to find out. Thanks.

Blackwater

Message to ehall.

To quote the Sundance Kid... "Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?"

lejams

Corresponds with much of what I've read.

ehall

Could have used more but I'm tired of lighting so many fuzes.

ehall

Keep something in mind about the ZDDP issue, IF your car runs a catalytic converter, oils with the old amounts will prematurely clog your cats. ( I don't have a catalytic converter). We've seen anecdotal evidence of 951's with clogged cats all over this board. I don't have hard data, nor do I know if our cats were designed and built with the same materials as more modern cats, but it's clearly an important issue. If you have a cat, this is a catch 22 issue for you. You can run increased ZDDP oils to reduce friction wear on your engine, but can bank on replacing the cat sooner; or you can run current API standard oils that will increase engine (specifically cam) wear and keep your cat alive for longer.

blodstrupmoen

This is plain wrong... AND yes It has been tested.

ehall

boston, no harm no foul. When I said it was made from Euro standards rather than the new lousy standard, I was referring to an API standard oil, regardless of manufacturer. Agip makes oils to both standards. Agip does infact manufacture in Pennsylvania as well as internationally. The oil you buy here is usually manufactured here for a variety of cost reasons. Where it is actually created is not relavent to the formulation characteristics of the particular product per se. The key indicator is to look for the API donut on the bottle. If you see it, the product is of the new standard, regardless of manufacturers bullshi...err...ummm...hype.

F18Rep

A lot of this is over my head but one interesting side note since someone mentioned Diesel oil and Excellium: My new VW diesel has to have a special motor oil - Excellium meets the spec so I use it. The interesting thing is that if I were to take the car in for warranty work, I'm told the first thing the dealer will do is have the oil analyzed to see if it meets the spec. If not, no warranty. Of course, some would point out that VW is so poor on warranting thier cars - they probably won't do anything anyway. ;] Bruce