A.Wayne

Honda dealer , they are used on the bikes .....

A.Wayne

A i said before , a good waste spark coil is as good as any cop, the packaging and reliability issues of dealing with spark plug wires is the advantage of COP as the coil fires right on the head of the spark plug , I have had very good results with both , but do prefer the packaging advantage of COP .........

Geneqco

Thanks

anders44

well after talking with a friend I'm sticking with bosch motorsport coilpack.

A.Wayne

That will work too...

anders44

yes, partly choose this as I will race a lot in germany, and its easy to get a spare part this way. and it's a good solution regardless. hopeing to mount it where distrubutor sits.

Geneqco

Re: Honda F4i COP units... do you guys know if these are all much the same from one year to the next?

Do the coil sticks have the igniters built in?

Thanks again.

Laust Pedersen

It appears that the answer to that question is NO.

To those contemplating an installation: How do you expect to (electrically) drive the COPs?
In terms of inductance and windings (voltage) ratio the typical Ford and Denso COPs certainly don’t match the regular single coil.

I look forward to se the first installation with adequate sparks.

Geneqco

Hi Laust,
In my case I'll be using a Wolf 3D. Mine is the V500 which, unlike the earlier V400 does not have the igniters built in... hence my question as to whether the Honda F4i have the igniter built in or not - if not, I'd have to buy another igniter to use with them.

Do you know?

DanG

F4i COPs don't have built in ignitors (AKA "dumb coils"). The LS2 CNPs I'll use on my car do (AKA "smart coils"). However, you can build your own ignitor circuit for about $6/coil.

Keep in mind that COPs are only as good as their controlling hardware. The MS I'll use can send an individual signal to each of the 4 coils (or up to 6), but its going to be the same signal repeated to each one. So it may be sequential, but its not capable (yet) of individual cylinder trim. If you ask me, individual cylinder trim on timing is rarely necessary. The advantages of sequential verses waste spark ignition are also negligible on our low rpm (<10k) application. A wise man would just tune a waste spark system correctly on a dyno and be done with it.

Sequential fueling, on the other hand, can be very helpful in trimming individual cylinders to the correct conditions. Air flow patterns and fuel requirements vary much more than ideal timing values. Its only necessary for people looking for that last percent or two, or for people that want to run things as close to the edge as possible.

I'm going to run COP/CNPs primarily because they clean things up underhood, and have a marginally hotter potential spark. I prefer not having long plug wires draped all over the engine bay or an ugly distributor at the end of the cam. But I'm not expecting my system's results to be wildly different from what I'd get developing a standard cap/rotor based system.

Geneqco

Thanks for the reply... this is also my reason, although i prefer the idea of COP to get rid of the leads.

Looks like the F4i stick coils fit nicely between the intake runners but how snugly do they fit into the cylinder head where they attach to the spark plugs? Why are you deciding to go with CNP rather than COP?

Thanks again for your help,

Scott

Geneqco

I just found a thread on another site that made the following comment about the F4i COPs:

You will need to use plugs that have removable tips on them. That just made your spark plug choice very limited.

Is this correct? what precisely do they mean?

Thanks again.

Laust Pedersen

Fortunately DanG answered your question.

I tried to use COPs (Denso and Ford) controlled by TEC-3 on my Jalpa, but could only get a barely visible spark, only enough for a few back fires. After long discussions with Electromotive they convinced me that it was simply impossible to run COPs on their system. They apparently have a feedback loop controlling the spark duration, which gets confused if it doesn’t see the electrical characteristics as their (transformer) coil pack. Their future TEC-4 (unknown release date) will have COP capabilities. My COP preference was only for packaging and aesthetics reasons.

You can’t ask any more (functionally) from an ignition system than providing a reliable combustion start at the right time under all conditions on a reasonably healthy engine. A well-maintained OEM system does a really good job at that.
On the other hand, continually failed sparks, while adding fuel, can bend rods and crack cylinders.

Laust

DanG

Scott, your first question is why I didn't want to use the F4i COPs after test fitting. They secure to the plug only at the threaded portion on the top, and a little bit of insulating boot around the side. Finding plugs with threads on the top (you can thread on a standard bulb to connect to a regular spark plug wire) isn't an issue in my book, as the NGK-R copper plugs I prefer to use are available like this.

But they wiggle around very easily installed on just the end of the plug, definitely not a good idea for a permanent solution. They're designed to plunge deep into a DOHC head, and be supported all along their length with just the connector on the top sticking out. So you'd have to fab some kind of supports grafted to the intake manifold to really make them work.

These are the LS2 CNPs I'll use. Much easier to mount, full "smart coil" circuitry, and beefy spark available. They're very popular in the high-hp 2JZ crowd.



(MSD version, but shows the short plug wires)

gt37vgt

as far as i know all OEM stuff has had problems with the coils on the engine and on a shaky motor like the 944 i opted for 4 external honda v6 coils as they have ingnigters on board but i would prefer them on the guard or on rubber if on the engine .