aventari

I'm getting my head rebuilt right now, and I told the rebuilder that the exhaust valves are sodium filled. He said you can't machine sodium filled valves, and that if the valve face needed work that I'd have to get new valves, but told me to check with the service manual to be sure.

The 944 service manual says nothing about resurfacing the valves in the 944 manual OR the turbo supplement.

Can they machine the valve faces?

The motor has 200,000 miles and the valves look worn so I assume they'll need it.

Also this is an 89 Turbo "S". I've read that the S has bigger exhaust valves. "The exhaust valves were also increased in diameter by 1/100th mm near the valve guide for better running at full load."

If I need to get new exhaust valves, do I need 944 Turbo S specific? I can't find anywhere that makes a distinction.

Would you guys recommend the Lindsey Steam vent kit for the rear of the head? That's incidentally right where my gasket blew. Also which head gasket should I get? This is a budget-ish rebuild to stock hp/tq levels.

aventari

On more question

When I removed the valves, there were shims under the valve spring seats. How is the height of the shims needed there measured? If I get new valves do I need to recheck those?

What about valves springs? Do they wear out? should I check the old ones? The machine shop said they could only test the old ones to see if they watch up with a new one, so should I buy a new valve spring and have the old ones tested against the new one(s)?

special tool

Dude - you need to take your engine to someone who has the slightest clue about even rudimentary engines.
Sodium valves are definitely not a new, space-age technology.
You are going to have problems there.

jturbo

I had my head reconditioned at Powerhaus in Arizona, by David. He did an AWSOME job. It was $900 and exchange your old head, but well worth it in every way. His work is exceptional!

www.powerhaus.com

aventari

your concern is noted, but the head is at the shop and I already put a deposit down. I've used these guys for years with watercooled VW stuff and the guy knows what he's doing, he's just older and cautious.

Any advice on steam vent kit or the difference between turbo S and normal turbo valves?

nitehawk951

Yeah, I've got some advice for you. THIS IS NOT A VW . This is a turbo "S", an S! Aventari, if you are going to ask for advice from people dont be so quick to swipe an idea off the table. Special tool couldnt be more right. You need to take certain items to people who qualify to do the work, and do it well. Please dont take what I'm saying the wrong way. But your first problem is that you dont have a reliable shop that is familiar with this type of vehicle. I live in your area and know of a few good shops and tuners who know these cars. I know, I know, blah blah I already gave a deposit. Dont be afraid to ask for it back along with the head. I'm not kidding, I am doing you a favor by telling you this, believe me. Save yourself a head ache man.
Another thing, a budgitish project? Firstly you can throw that thought out the window if your gonna let some old codger tinker with it, second, its a 951 S. Ok, If you want it to just stay stock then I know a couple places if your interested. But a tuner may charge less and do a better job, again I know of a couple. Yes, to all of you reading this I would recommend AMW for the job any day, hes currently working on my 951, yes AMW, John is the best. More people would suggest SFR (speed force racing) in santee. I use them too and Tim is a cool guy. Let me know what you think, I can suggest other good places in the area, its up to you. I've been down this road and these suggestions should help. Just look at speedforceracing.com and then tell me you would rather have 60 year old Fritz work on it. Good luck. Lol, you gave a deposit on head work.

billindenver

This is not rocket science. It is a head....not a nuke plant. Take it to a head shop that knows what they are doing and let them work it over. In Denver there is a shop called colorado automotive machine that did mine. He has all the equipment to lap stock cylinders etc as well. Knows what he is doing. Full valve job and deck, new guides, one exhaust valve was slightly bent so that was replaced. Something like $300 total. $900 to pull some valves out, regrind and put them back..is just rediculous. I pulled all my valves out and lapped them myself in 2 hours a few years back. A pro, with a proper set up can do this so fast it's stupid. It is not that hard.

To answer your question, yes he can grind the valves. But if he doesn't know that...I would take it somewhere else. IMHO

nitehawk951

I dont think he should feel bad taking his money back and going to another shop. Why would you grind down old valves and pay labor when you could just buy new valves, check the seats and have the head rebuilt? There are so many better alternatives its not even funny. Besides, if it is too hard for you to make that decision I will gladly buy the "S" and make the decision. Listen to bill and special tool.

Bill do you have the ceramic ball bearing option? Any real noticable difference in spool response?

billindenver

That is a question that is currently on the front of my "pissed off' list. Yes, I paid for the ceramic ball bearing GARRETT turbo option from Huntley. Since my car is apart for rebuild (#2 rod bearing failure) I decided to send it off for a checkup at Garrett.

They called...

"sir, this is not a garrett. It's a Turbonetics ball bearing turbo. Looks to be fine, needs a thrust bearing but other than that it's healthy. Want us to fix her up and send it back? $180 or so."

So yeah, I'm a bit pissed. Huntley was a screwball, no doubt about it...but this is pretty crappy. Still, the turbo does put down the power. I guess I can't really be to upset. I'm still looking into it to determine if perhaps the garrett distributer I sent it to (precision turbo) is wrong. May have to change my signature in the future. Think I'll call it "huntley bull**** turbo option" How does that sound to you?

Mighty Shilling

Colorado Automotive Machine did my block and head on the 924S when I did it's rebuild... good work!

sharky47

Jone's Autowerks in San Antonio does all my headwork. They did a 951 head for me, and my 944 race head is there waiting for me to pick it up.......

nitehawk951

Hey Bill thats interesting news. I dont know if you read the thread I started like a month ago about me going to John Anderson to put together a really nice 951, and many told me not to. Anyway, SFR is getting me the turbo for John through Turbonetics, the same place where your turbo is from. About 2 weeks ago we received the turbo and I learned that there was that ceramic ball bearing option that mine did not come with. I called turbonetics and asked them if their claim on their website of a 25% quicker spool was accurate with the ball bearing option. Of course the guy on the phone was more than confident in his companies product. I asked Tim Richards of SFR if this was correct and he laughed and said that it didnt seem possible but yes, there is a quicker spool of some degree.
Then I asked Mr. 951, John Anderson, and mentioned that I might want to send the turbo we received and get the ceramic ball bearing option. John got fired up and asked me who had talked me into believing that!? "Ive installed them for many people and tested them, on street and on track and Ive never noticed a difference, EVER". "Just tryin to sell ya somethin extra you dont need". This is why I trust the guy. Honesty to the bone, no matter what anyone on this list says, thinks or has experienced. Im glad I chose Anderson.
Though these are just opinions by guys that have been doing this for many years, I put my full trust in John to give me the best bang for my buck. Thanks for the info bill.
Back to Aventari, if you asked the guy, he would without a doubt in my mind give you the fairest price in all of san diego. Hes the man, later.

m42racer

I think you should ask the shop about the Valves first. Everyone here was very quick to jump all over the shop. Maybe with 200,000 miles the Valves are so bad that after re facing the Valves will have no margin left. A Valve is a Valve. If this hop rebuilds any heads, they will know how to reface Valves and when you cannot. All I ever hear is that your been ripped off. Just maybe he is doing you a favor. Why don't you ask him why first. Maybe the stems are worn also.

I think most here have no clue about about how to do this work properly. To rebuild one of these heads properly takes more than $ 300.00. Two things come to mind. Either the shop works for nothing or they do nothing. For all those who presume to know, please imform me what it takes to rebuild one of these heads?

I am not trying to be smart here, but this is always something I am curious about. So often I read how much people are overpaying to have certain work done. I think this is a good oportunity for us to discuss what is involved and how much it should cost. Maybe this guy may learn something about the work he is having done.

In answer to your question, it is possible to re face the Valves, but they may be so bad that the margin would disappeare and the Valve margin become a razor blade.

So many of those $ 300.00 head jobs have had this done and the unsuspecting owner has no clue. This is unfortunate.

m42racer

I would also like to add something here. Most repair shops that send out their head work have no clue how and what is involved. As long as its cheap, get it done and we will reinstall. If only the customer knew.

I have seats recut so low that the flow was so bad that the head flowed better before. It costs to replace the seats so to often this work is not done in fear that the customer would say no. The chambers are cut down to match the low seat and there goes any chance of good flow etc. When work like this is done, much of the other required work is passed over to.

It really is a shame that good work is put down because of cost. I know of one Porsche machine shop that is jammed to the walls with work. It has nothing to do with quality. Cost, low cost is why they are so busy. Most of their work is from repair shops that want it cheap to maximise thier profit in the job. Quality is no where to be found. What a shame. We are paying for this. Good work is available and you can tell the difference.

billindenver

There is no voodoo behind head work. Everything is spec'd, from the valve face to the valve seat. All it takes is a machine shop who knows what they are doing, who charges for the TIME they spend doing it...not the 'porsche price' that so many people just pay. Porsche heads are no more difficult to work on than any other head. I've stripped mine down a few times now, and it's just not that tough. All of the specs are in the manual....not rocket science. But if it makes you feel better to spend a grand having a few hours of work done...there is nothing wrong with buying peace of mind. I would just rather buy a round of beers at the track.

There are certainly bad machine shops out there, just as there are bad mechanics. But price does not necessarily buy you better work.