Millege intake, anyone have experience with it?
10-06-2006, 01:52 AM
#76
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Hey Joe, how are ya doin?
Getting more hp out of your engine is all about addressing the weekest link in the chain of events.
I don't think that a heavily modified intake manifold is what you want at your stage.
I know your current setup somewhat, because I also had a PH motor and I know what David advocates. He is a standup guy and builds strong, reliable motors, but he's not an engineer and there are some choke points on route to getting the most airflow and fuel to your motor, and the intake manifold is not one of them at your stage.
A couple of things you're probably already addressing:
-injector size
-modifying the MAF chip (might have to go stand alone)
-exhaust size
-intercooler size
-air filter too small
Email me if you like.
Rolex,
it seems like you're the kingpin around here now.
You can say pretty much whatever you want while other listers have contend with your "report sent"
I'm betting that Jon Milledge doesn't like a smartass.
However, I do agree with everything you said in your long post about how one should conduct themselves in order to have a good report with potential customers.
My experience with him was practically identical to Tedwright's, and pisses me off as well.
But, like somebody already said, he simply doesn't give a ****; he has enough business.
Getting more hp out of your engine is all about addressing the weekest link in the chain of events.
I don't think that a heavily modified intake manifold is what you want at your stage.
I know your current setup somewhat, because I also had a PH motor and I know what David advocates. He is a standup guy and builds strong, reliable motors, but he's not an engineer and there are some choke points on route to getting the most airflow and fuel to your motor, and the intake manifold is not one of them at your stage.
A couple of things you're probably already addressing:
-injector size
-modifying the MAF chip (might have to go stand alone)
-exhaust size
-intercooler size
-air filter too small
Email me if you like.
Rolex,
it seems like you're the kingpin around here now.
You can say pretty much whatever you want while other listers have contend with your "report sent"
I'm betting that Jon Milledge doesn't like a smartass.
However, I do agree with everything you said in your long post about how one should conduct themselves in order to have a good report with potential customers.
My experience with him was practically identical to Tedwright's, and pisses me off as well.
But, like somebody already said, he simply doesn't give a ****; he has enough business.
10-06-2006, 04:14 AM
#77
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Originally Posted by M758
$45k for a 944 Turbo Race motor that puts out more HP than a 996 GT3 cup motor. Hmm... proce seems fair to me. Hey anyone can fab up a custom intake manifold. That is quite easy. The tough part is making one that works and not just that works very very well. For a racer wanting to win 95% as good as the next guy is NOT going to cut it and why even both.
It is just like an old saying.
A machine in factory goes down and stops production. The local maintinence guys can't figure out the probelm and they call in a consulant to come in and find the problem. He comes in and looks at the machine for a while and then after a puts chalk "X" and says to the facotry maintence team. Hit the machine here. They do and the machine works again. Later he sends in his bill for $20,000 for the repair. Clearly the factory managers are upset at the high cost so ask for him to itemize the bill. He does so and here is was it came out.
Stick of Chalk................................................$1.00
Knowledge of where to put the mark.......$19,999.00
Total....................................................$20,000.00
Hey anyone can build a motor, but how many can build 450 to 500 hp Porsche motors that are proven winners? Remember also that even as little as 5 years ago a top notch GT 944 Turbo could be simply the FASTEST car at any PCA club race. Before the advent of easily accessable 996 Cup cars the only way to be faster than a properly build 944 Turbo was to get 935, 993 3.8 RSR or 993 GT2. All which were hard to get at any price. So what this mean was there was ALOT of money going into GT 944 turbos and $45k for 450-500 hp race quality motor was a good deal and there were only 2-3 places in country you could for that kind of engine.
It is just like an old saying.
A machine in factory goes down and stops production. The local maintinence guys can't figure out the probelm and they call in a consulant to come in and find the problem. He comes in and looks at the machine for a while and then after a puts chalk "X" and says to the facotry maintence team. Hit the machine here. They do and the machine works again. Later he sends in his bill for $20,000 for the repair. Clearly the factory managers are upset at the high cost so ask for him to itemize the bill. He does so and here is was it came out.
Stick of Chalk................................................$1.00
Knowledge of where to put the mark.......$19,999.00
Total....................................................$20,000.00
Hey anyone can build a motor, but how many can build 450 to 500 hp Porsche motors that are proven winners? Remember also that even as little as 5 years ago a top notch GT 944 Turbo could be simply the FASTEST car at any PCA club race. Before the advent of easily accessable 996 Cup cars the only way to be faster than a properly build 944 Turbo was to get 935, 993 3.8 RSR or 993 GT2. All which were hard to get at any price. So what this mean was there was ALOT of money going into GT 944 turbos and $45k for 450-500 hp race quality motor was a good deal and there were only 2-3 places in country you could for that kind of engine.
I completely understand not wanting to deal with a *******. And guys who win races and have a rep like JME are ********...period. All of them. But, if you want to win you go with them. For me personally im not in the position I would rather be treated with respect and have great customer service then have the end of be all of a motor.
But, if you want the best. You gotta pay. 60k for a motor is alot for a street car. For a track car that costs 60k a season to run having a motor that can last a couple season's without failure for 60k is a bargin
10-06-2006, 08:01 AM
#78
Yeah, man - that's what I thought. Another bull**** story.
I never saw a bigger bunch of guys so full of f-ing **** than Porsche tuners.
Or maybe you are above posting real results on a silly web forum - what's the deal, son?
I never saw a bigger bunch of guys so full of f-ing **** than Porsche tuners.
Or maybe you are above posting real results on a silly web forum - what's the deal, son?
10-06-2006, 08:45 AM
#79
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Special ,
Yes I have dyno sheets , And you can also give Billy a call , What is the name of your shop? "been in business longer tham JME" Not doughting you just never heard of a porsche engine builder in Bethel.
Yes I have dyno sheets , And you can also give Billy a call , What is the name of your shop? "been in business longer tham JME" Not doughting you just never heard of a porsche engine builder in Bethel.
10-06-2006, 09:00 AM
#80
Originally Posted by JLockton
Special ,
Yes I have dyno sheets , And you can also give Billy a call , What is the name of your shop? "been in business longer tham JME" Not doughting you just never heard of a porsche engine builder in Bethel.
Yes I have dyno sheets , And you can also give Billy a call , What is the name of your shop? "been in business longer tham JME" Not doughting you just never heard of a porsche engine builder in Bethel.
I was going to leave you alone until you tiptoed into a sales pitch. You aren't even supposed to do that without membership. I am thinking that you planned the whole thing.
Since you did this, I am on you - show the sheet please.
There are many fantastik, speculative stories floating around Rennlist about 951 horsepower. Usually when I ask for something tangeable, it dies a quiet death. Some of us know how difficult it is to achieve.
Post something and I go away and you have my respect.
10-06-2006, 09:03 AM
#81
Nordschleife Master
Its funny, Making HP from a motor isn't exactly nucular science and I do think that Jon M is overpriced. However, if people are willing to pay that kind of money for his products then good for him. I am glad to see that he has been sucessful. I thought his cam prices for my 944 S2 was inline with others for price.
Anyone ever look at EVOMS.COM? These guys are out of there mind... $2000 for a reprogram of the ECU for a 996TT... Yea, I think I will go standalone and lose emissions crap and tune for $2500 not to mention the HP gain over the factory ECU!....
Anyone ever look at EVOMS.COM? These guys are out of there mind... $2000 for a reprogram of the ECU for a 996TT... Yea, I think I will go standalone and lose emissions crap and tune for $2500 not to mention the HP gain over the factory ECU!....
10-06-2006, 10:08 AM
#82
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About the "sales pitch" Im not here to make money by selling things ,Im on here to try and help people out ,I was already kicked off for posting about our cells so I know the routine. I have been around the block a time or two myself with 951's , I can say with confidence that my brother and I are responsible for two of the fastest 944's in this country.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-951-944-turbo-PCA-GT3-SCCA-SPO-race-car_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ98064QQihZ019QQitemZ290034588045QQrdZ1QQs spagenameZWDVW
And as far as gaining your respect :
I dont need to" The original post was "does anyone have any experience with it " Well I DO so next time stay on topic
And as far as gaining your respect :
I dont need to" The original post was "does anyone have any experience with it " Well I DO so next time stay on topic
10-06-2006, 11:02 AM
#83
Race Director
Originally Posted by DFASTEST951
Wait a minute, I'm sure it was you Joe. You mentioned you were heavy into 944 spec racing. It was at Dyno Comp. Oh, I had a six foot blonde bombshell with me. Remember now? I'm sure it was you...
I have been to dyno comp only once for PCA dyno day. Believe me I would have remembered 480 hp, show quality black car , 6 foot blond. You don't forget those things seeing them in person.
Remember there are some 30 guys into 944 spec just in Arizona. Could have been any of them.
10-06-2006, 11:22 AM
#84
Race Director
Again consider a 996 GT3 Race motor. Hmm what to do the Daytona Prototype 500 hp motor cost. Then consider what a Milledge 951 motor costs. It is one thing to take a stock 2.5L motor slap on huge turbo, cool headers and little headwork, do some realy kick-*** tuning and crank out 500hp. That takes a good level of skill and talent for sure, but then ask that motor to crank out 500+ hp for 20-60 min a strech and do that 5-6 times in weekend. The truth is with any turbo motor the trick is not just making hp, but making it last. Vitesse knows this and that is why he says "peak number are not what we are after" At these same time he specializes in turbos and tuning. He does not sell or upgrade internals and this is where alot of the expense comes from.
My friend Paul Bloomberg used to be on these forums. He had a Techodyne built 400 rwhp 944 Turbo. Nice fun car and fast as snot. He did a couple DE days in the car, but asked Chris Cervelli if he should race it. Chris said to race a car with that kind of hp would take alot more than just race tires. The engine will find for the occasion street blast would need to torn down and all the internals beefed up to handle the power. Cost was going to be something large. Paul said no to that and kept racing is 944 spec car. Then he sold it and got a former Grand Am cup championship Interga Type R. Sadly he has had all kind of problems with that car. He found a shop to "sponsor" him and give him free labor. They have built multiple motors for him, but the never seem to last. Why? They are a "bolt on" shop good a making "bolt on" street hp. Once Paul starts racing the car he is lucky to last for a full day let alone a weekend. Point is getting good "hp numbers" is not big deal, but this shop seems to have no clue how to make the engines last.
So why pay 2 or 3x the money for the same hp (or less than) Specal Tool? Well you pay not for the hp, but for the hp to last through the very severe duty that racing put on the car. Oh... don't falsly think that because you have done a few DE's that it is in anyway like racing. Nope DE's are easy on cars compared to racing. In DE you can be "nice" to the car. In racing once the green drops and you chasing the car in from you don't give rats *** about the car happily beat the stuffing out it.
My friend Paul Bloomberg used to be on these forums. He had a Techodyne built 400 rwhp 944 Turbo. Nice fun car and fast as snot. He did a couple DE days in the car, but asked Chris Cervelli if he should race it. Chris said to race a car with that kind of hp would take alot more than just race tires. The engine will find for the occasion street blast would need to torn down and all the internals beefed up to handle the power. Cost was going to be something large. Paul said no to that and kept racing is 944 spec car. Then he sold it and got a former Grand Am cup championship Interga Type R. Sadly he has had all kind of problems with that car. He found a shop to "sponsor" him and give him free labor. They have built multiple motors for him, but the never seem to last. Why? They are a "bolt on" shop good a making "bolt on" street hp. Once Paul starts racing the car he is lucky to last for a full day let alone a weekend. Point is getting good "hp numbers" is not big deal, but this shop seems to have no clue how to make the engines last.
So why pay 2 or 3x the money for the same hp (or less than) Specal Tool? Well you pay not for the hp, but for the hp to last through the very severe duty that racing put on the car. Oh... don't falsly think that because you have done a few DE's that it is in anyway like racing. Nope DE's are easy on cars compared to racing. In DE you can be "nice" to the car. In racing once the green drops and you chasing the car in from you don't give rats *** about the car happily beat the stuffing out it.
10-06-2006, 11:42 AM
#85
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So what do they do to beef it up better bearnings, stronger rods change the crankshaft, sleeve the block, double 0ring block head, port head, bigger intercooler drysump oiling system change intake?
10-06-2006, 11:43 AM
#86
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I talked to Jon Milledge a few years ago about building a 3L motor and he told me it would be "around $20K" including dyno tuning. I said that was more than I could spend, and he said it could be a little lower, but it would be close to that figure. We talked for quite a while on the phone about heads, rods, pistons, 8V, 16V. He was very friendly and knowledgable. I know he is notorious for not returning emails and phone calls about parts but his business is really building race engines not selling parts. I'm sure he returns calls from people who he built engines for. He has a good reputation for supporting the engines he's built.
--Brian Morris
89 951
--Brian Morris
89 951
10-06-2006, 12:27 PM
#87
Race Director
Originally Posted by pk951
So what do they do to beef it up?
Hey it is just like Vitesse. His turbo kits are not the cheapest and he does some "special mods" to the turbo to make them work the way he wants. I am sure part of the cost for these kits is related to that special knowledge not just parts can basic labor alone.
10-06-2006, 01:41 PM
#88
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Wow, surprised by most of this nonsense.
I haven't ponied up the dollars for the JME intake, but every time I've talked to him, he's been a gentleman. He's answered many emails, told me some fun stories about Roy "Cheater" Chong and spent a long time on the phone with me talking about the motor I am currently having built at another shop. I haven't bought a motor from him but I have used 2 of his heads - the first was bought used and when I called to get some info on it, he was happy to talk to me. He was also happy to sell me a camshaft. So, two thumbs up for Jon from me.
And Rolex, stop trying to bully people, this forum has been around a lot longer than you have. You sound like NZ bashing on Lindsey for no reason at all. What clout? The Lifetime Membership isn't a license to be a jerk, trust me. And the guy you reported for disagreeing with you is dead on right.
I haven't ponied up the dollars for the JME intake, but every time I've talked to him, he's been a gentleman. He's answered many emails, told me some fun stories about Roy "Cheater" Chong and spent a long time on the phone with me talking about the motor I am currently having built at another shop. I haven't bought a motor from him but I have used 2 of his heads - the first was bought used and when I called to get some info on it, he was happy to talk to me. He was also happy to sell me a camshaft. So, two thumbs up for Jon from me.
And Rolex, stop trying to bully people, this forum has been around a lot longer than you have. You sound like NZ bashing on Lindsey for no reason at all. What clout? The Lifetime Membership isn't a license to be a jerk, trust me. And the guy you reported for disagreeing with you is dead on right.
10-06-2006, 03:00 PM
#89
Originally Posted by 944 Fanatic
Wow, surprised by most of this nonsense.
And Rolex, stop trying to bully people, this forum has been around a lot longer than you have. You sound like NZ bashing on Lindsey for no reason at all. What clout? The Lifetime Membership isn't a license to be a jerk, trust me. And the guy you reported for disagreeing with you is dead on right.
And Rolex, stop trying to bully people, this forum has been around a lot longer than you have. You sound like NZ bashing on Lindsey for no reason at all. What clout? The Lifetime Membership isn't a license to be a jerk, trust me. And the guy you reported for disagreeing with you is dead on right.
10-06-2006, 03:14 PM
#90
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Originally Posted by DFASTEST951
Wait a minute, I'm sure it was you Joe. You mentioned you were heavy into 944 spec racing. It was at Dyno Comp. Oh, I had a six foot blonde bombshell with me. Remember now? I'm sure it was you...