95Juan

oh, i knew that. i wasnt thinking of it as a replacement or even offering anything close to water/meth injection.

i was meaning as in- if you dont want to risk anything, and you dont have the $$/knowledge to do water/meth injection, you could always get some jets and spray the intercooler with water instead.



so- with adding a 50/50 meth/water mix (or 49/49/1 w/blue tint, lol), would you need to advance timing, or would you just be albe to shoot it in there, and assuming you did it right, and plotted out boost, would get power increase?

what about just water injection? since it isnt "boosting" octane, you would just be able to run it without messing with timing or anything else really, right?

i mean, you probably wouldnt get as much of a boost as if you had "tuned" it right, but you'd still get a considerable boost, right?




correct me if i'm wrong- i probably am, lol.

95Juan

no, i havent.

that's why i'm asking, lol.



you mean water intercooler sprayers, right? because i thought the nitrous intercooler sprayers worked.... a whole lot more than 1%?

macnewma

I am pretty certain the only people who sell intercooler sprayers are shops that also refill nitrous bottles. Sounds like a pretty good biz!

One advantage of intercooler sprayers is that you are typically less reliant upon the advantage provided and therefore when your system stops working or if you run out of water you don't blow up. At the same time, the advantage is not as significant.

DanG

Caught a slight error in my post above and didn't want to spread mis-information. Smurf pee is likely closer to 30-40% meth, still about 1% dye/detergent, and the rest water. Some people have concerns about the consistency and accuracy of the mixture compared to a 50/50 self mixed juice from pure meth and pure distilled water. Basically worried about the fact that there's no assurance that different manufacturers will have the same ratios, or even different batches from the same brand. But the reality is that the %age water to meth shouldn't be too critical. There will be minimal power gains/losses with any fluctuation, and the cooling/knock prevetion effects will remain nearly equal. Basically if it doesn't knock with 20meth/80water, it won't knock with 50/50 either, and the converse, unless you have everything tuned to the ragged edge.

The only real variable with smurf **** is the 1% (possibly greater) of additives. There are some reports that they can gunk up the plumbing and hurt the spray atomization. But a regular maintenance regimen (every 5 tanks of fluid or whatever) should be able to keep that in check. The general usage is about 1 gallon per tank of fuel for street driving, or about 10 minutes of continuous boost. Obviously that can vary a lot depending on how you set things up and how you drive, but those are general guidelines.

Also, make sure that you don't use glycol based fluids (I think the orange RainX is this kind). You want the cheap-o blue stuff, and the colder the operating rating, the better (higher % meth).

toddk911

Oh ok As WI is a little better than a turd

yes, I have seen before and after tests/dynos of WI sprayers and they only saw about 1% gains, i.e at the wheels. But your right in that a IC sprayer system is much eaiser to set up/install.

I think the sprayer would be a case of not looking for gains, but help in reducing the losses from heat soaked IC, stop and go traffic etc.

Yea, if you wanted to do sprayer you would see more results with NO2 as it is a much colder medium. But that would be a more expensive/involved. And the cost would be the same or more then a WI system.

Jakerx

Ok, what the hell is smurf ****? Is it a joke that I'm not getting? Lol

95Juan

i think they mean washer fluid?


yo es confusedo also-o.

hacker-pschorr

I hope smurf **** = blue washer fluid. Otherwise I have no idea what I'm talking about.

What he hell is the purple stuff then? Fraggle ****? Arn't the Fraggle's purple?

Jakerx

Ah ok. Makes sense now.

95Juan

i think fraggles come in all assortments of colors.



that is, if we're speaking of the Fraggles from Fraggle Rock.....









Wait- Washer fluid has meth in it?

Jakerx

I think the meth being in there is what prevents it from freezing at 35 degrees?

95Juan

good point!


wait- http://www.carcare.org/Fluids_Filter...er_fluid.shtml





yeah, i guess it does.........

jasoncoker

Hello Everyone,

I just saw this thread.

I was using washer fluid at the time of the dyno runs. It was not the blue stuff. It was pink and had some type of alcohol added to it b/c it had a freezing point lower than water (I cannot remember exactly what it was rated at). I can no longer find this washer fluid around Los Angeles. I can find the blue stuff, but I cannot find any of that type with any alcohol in it. You can tell easily by looking at the temperature that it is rated to. I can only find it rated to +32 degrees. I believe that the temperate weather here is the reason I cannot find any washer fluid with alcohol in it. The general move away from Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) might be a reason as well. Nevertheless, be sure of what you are getting before you buy it. I would be very surprised if the methanol concentration was as high as previously mentioned. I cannot speak to formulations across the country, but I doubt it is that high. To be certain, I would mix my own.

That said, however, I do not use methanol. I currently mix distilled water with denatured alcohol (usually a 70:30 or 60:40 ratio). The denatured alcohol is mostly ethanol with some methylated additive (prob. a very small amount of methanol) so that people will not drink it. Anyway, it is not nearly as corrosive as methanol, and I would expect that it is less corrosive than gasoline.

As far as long term effects. Many people have stated that water injection mixtures provide a definite cleaning action. I have not had my head off to see what the carbon buildup looks like on the piston tops, though. I would not be surprised to find that the alcohols and water could wash down the cylinder walls if too much were injected. Finally, increasing boost pressure b/c of the added knock resistance could result in higher stresses on the motor and greater wear. Since I run 15-16 lbs., though, it is not a major concern for me.

I installed the water injection b/c the 91 octane in CA is pretty bad. It is much worse than the 92 was (and greater than the single point drop would suggest). The other additives must have done something, though I concede that the octane rating is the octane rating. In practical use, however, the difference seems greater. I just wanted a little piece of mind after my headgasket blew.

As a side note, I got a modified exhaust ticket today. If anyone wishes to sell a stock system, please let me know.

Finally, I may try to sell my wheels. Since I am not a member, though, I cannot say that. I will join if I decide to sell my wheels on Rennlist so as not to break any rules. I will not post details on the forum until that time (if it comes).

Let me know if you have any questions.

Sincerely,
j

95Juan

So- what happens if you're say- running a chipset for 15 psi.

and you're making a decent amount of HP.

but then you keep the same boost level, but add water/methanol (or other type) of injection?


would you see any increase?

or is the purpose of adding water/alcohol injection so that you raise the level of knock protection so you can raise boost?

DanG

Juan, if you're already running the max boost you want to run and you don't have any knock at full timing, then you should see minimal gains. Water/meth injection is really meant to take a car thats at the limit of safe operation in regard to knock and raise that limit. Either higher boost, more timing advance, or both.

I guess you could try running 89 octane w/ the W-M injection at your current boost level (or maybe start off much lower to be safe) and see if you could get away with cheaper fillups. But that would make running out of fluid in the middle of nowhere more dangerous.

Jason, I hadn't thought that finding -20 or -30 F washer fluid would be a problem, but you're right its probably not needed in temperate places. In that case mixing your own from commercially available meth or denatured alcohol is a pretty reasonable option. A gallon of self mixed 50:50 should come to about $1.50 if you do some careful shopping.