TonyG

tedesco

>>>Are you still useing the stock 944 transaxle and gearbox? <<<

Yes. It's a '88 Turbo S LSD tranny.

>>>Would the 928 be stronger?<<<

I couldn't answer that. But I don't think you can bolt in a 928 box without sheet metal work.

It's pretty rare that a 944 turbo box lets go. I've run a LOT of power through them with 100% relliablity.

Time will tell...

>>>Which torque is the max for stock drive shafts, have seen you swapped to GKN?<<<

Don't know, and yet those are the GKN axles.

The complete suspension, bearings, rod ends, bushings, etc... are all new. So why not finish the project suspension/driveline with a new set cv joints/axles? And what better place to justify the cost than in a V8 944.

>>>Increadible job!! Thought it was already tight around the 951 engine....<<<

Thanks for the compliment, but it's really more a function of throwing a lot of money at it rather than any special skills...

And believe it or not, there's a lot more room to work on the engine with the V8 than there ever was with the 951 engine (and a LOT less stuff bolted to the engine as well... much more simple).

TonyG

TonyG

JPR

>>>Welcome to the club.<<<

It's a cool club to belong to thus far!

>>>Ive had that combination (2002 LS1 V8) for a year an a half and the only regret I have is not having done it sooner. <<<

Me too (about doing it sooner). If you stop and think about how much money it takes to make big power, reliably, and at a reasonable boost level, the V8 conversion starts to look inexpensive. Then factor in the fact that it's 100% reliable, and the picture gets even better.

>>>Were we differ is that Im using a 968 6-speed and Im getting ready to get a taller ring and pinion to keep the tight gear spacing and have a lower rpm cruising speed.<<<

I would think that the wide-ratio of the 5 speed is more suited to the torque curve of a V8, rather than the close-ratio 6 speed (typically used where you need to keep the engine rpms in a narrow area to make power).

>>>Im also reseaching the posibility of getting an electric brake booster to get assisted brakes.<<<

I don't have any real time in the car to comment. But it was definite concern when doing the conversion.

Let me know how the electric booster goes if you do it.

TonyG

Zero10

Brand new LS-1 crate motors (including ECU) are ~$4500, the renegade hybrid kit is $2200, and by the time you have new power steering and A/C lines made up it will probably be another $500.
To me the bill looks like $8000-$9000 for the conversion. Of course if you are building a big power LS1 or LS2 I could see the bill rising by a couple thousand, but the $18k figure shocks me. I certainly hope it costs me a little more than half of that when I do it. I was budgeting for a top-end amount of $10k.

Matt H

I think some of us have been saying that 9K wasnt going to happen for a long time, there is more to it than just bolting in the kit and motor and being done.
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TonyG

Zero10

You are very much oversimplifying things.


Show me how you are going to installation $4500 LS1 into the car without the new "custom" engine wiring harness $$$ or newly reprogrammed ecu $$$ (the stock ecu won't work).

There is a TON more "little stuff" which ends up turning into big $$$ by the time you're done... uh... like the exhaust system for example, or the clutch, or the starter, or the....

You'll figure it out when you try it :-)

Let us know your finally bill by the time you are "out-the-door".


Remember... when you get quoted numbers by Renegade, or anybody else, you are getting "bare bones kit" numbers. There's a BIG difference between a "bare bones kit" price, and a "finished, out-the-door" price.

Take a look at the Renegade "basic kit". You'll need all of that. You'll also need more than 1/2 of their "optional kit" stuff that at a minimum, plus you'll need a lot more expensive stuff even after that.

And don't think that you'll do the job in a couple of weekends. It's a LOT more work than that (even on a lift).


Have fun...


TonyG

951and944S

I don't know where the "reliable" tag got applied to Chevy V8's.
Other than the Corvettes that frequent road racing events, the LT1, LS1, LS6's will mostly be found at the drag strip, running staright acceleration runs of 12-13 seconds in Camaros and Firebirds.
Even at that, when they're used outside their design window with bolt on's, etc. they're no more reliable than anything else.
It's debatable, at least of the ones I regularly see at road racing events, just how hard the V8 Vettes are being pushed by average Corvette buyer.
Try doubling the output of one of these engines (as in a 400hp/trq. 951) and see how long it lives, especially in the duty cycles required in road racing sprints and enduros.
Porsche demonstrated the potential and reliability of the inline 4's, at LeMans no less.
I don't see why a properly built, fresh (let's not compare a crate engine to a 150K neglected four) 951 engine with proper cooling and oiling and 20 years of R & D wouldn't be more reliable or at the very least, just as, in an environment where Chevrolet (other than the Vettes) has had little presence.
Just my $.02, that at a $15-$18k price tag, one could build a very reliable 400hp 951 drivetrain.

TS

Sam Lin

Do you know anything about the LS-series engines? Talk to someone who actually does, I'd start with the drivers of those "Corvettes that frequent road racing events." See what their operating costs are over a season, over 2 seasons, over 3 seasons. How can you just dismiss the Vettes from your evaluation of the LS-series engines when the vast majority of those engines come in Vettes, and that is coincidentally the only "sports car" that GM sells today? Or are you just trying to compare apples to oranges because it favors your argument?

Have any proof? I don't know of a single bolt-on that hurts the LS1's reliability, and I've got hundreds of hours of experience with them on the road and drag race course. I could even stretch and say the Magnusson supercharger is a bolt-on and that it doesn't affect reliability either.

So cars at the road races are not valid evidence of reliability? Even in the "average" driver's hands the engine is still getting plenty of constant rev time and building up accelerated cycles. What the hell are you talking about?

Not to be glib, but who cares how long an LS-series engine will last at double the factory output? The goal is simply to have 400 reliable hp and torque, and at that level the LS will walk all over any 951 engine in both reliability and performance. The LS has more torque than any 951 engine will ever make up to 4000rpm, and requires fewer rebuilds, each of which also cost less. The LS also revs higher and has a higher ceiling. Incidentally I've worked with a few LS1s at double the factory output (700hp/tq and up) and even they cost less to operate than a built 951 engine. It's somewhat pointless as there's not a road race car in the world that can harness that power.

And Chevy demonstrated the potential and reliability of the LS-series engine at LeMans too, taking 4 1-2 class wins. Apples to apples here. Privateers have also demonstrated the potential and reliability of the LS-series, across the SCCA, SpeedGT, and other smaller racing series, LS-series engines are quite competitive and posting very few DNF's. Compare to the percentages of 944/951 DNFs (or more often, DNS) in classes at the PCA club races, 944Cup, and even Spec944.

That's well and good, but where are you going to get 20 years of R&D? I can highlight a number of changes that need to be made to get reasonable output, and none can be done by the average tuner or privateer. There aren't enough 944/951 on the road to cover the cost of a real R&D evolution that could possibly get reliability and performance to the LS's level.

The fact stands that despite you discounting the Vette's total involvement, and in many cases domination, of many forms and classes of racing, it has a TON of presence and is solid proof that the LS-series engine is one of the most reliable engines in motorsports today.

Sam

951and944S

'Do you know anything about the LS-series engines? Talk to someone who actually does, I'd start with the drivers of those "Corvettes that frequent road racing events." See what their operating costs are over a season, over 2 seasons, over 3 seasons".

I know enough that I see owners on their 2nd and 3rd engines in 3-5 year old Camaros and Firebirds because they beat on them at the drag strip 1-2 times a month for the total equivalent run time at WOT of just a few minutes.
I'm self employed, in the transmission business and do work for a GM dealer next door as well so needless to say I've seen my share of broken engines, trannys and diffs.
Secondly, having first hand views of disassembled current model engines on a daily basis, I've seen GM take paths of technology, specifically for sake of this thread, engine technology that they basically copied from companies that they gobbled up. In the case of the post LT1 engines, the aluminum crankcase, cylinder heads, coil per cylinder and horizontal main bearing pinch bolts from circa 1991 while GM was still making cast iron blocks, some with cast iron heads and 2 bolt main bearings.....

"How can you just dismiss the Vettes from your evaluation of the LS-series engines when the vast majority of those engines come in Vettes, and that is coincidentally the only "sports car" that GM sells today?"

Erm, I think you'll notice that I *didn't* dismiss them.

"Or are you just trying to compare apples to oranges because it favors your argument?"

As if comparing reliability (direction thread was headed) of a brand new (not remanufactured) GM crate engine to a modded 20 year old engine isn't...?

TS

turbo8

just so you know the guy that drives around in the orange\clear coat 914 power by the subaru engine from renegade hybrids flagged me down, we talked for awhile and he said for $10k you can have your self a v8 in your 951 thats including labor it was the Lt series engine though.

d993

LS1/2/6/7.............The best and most worthwhile swaps.
For those die-hard non-believers, check with Gokey Performance in FL (or just race them on the track).

ztnedman1

Woah. The LsX engines are relaiable. Most of the GM products go bad due to other aspects. The actual engines are VERY good. 400hp 944 engine is going to take some serious mods, where as the lsX engine either have or almost have that stock.

Not to mention its a brand new engine vs. AT BEST a totally rebuilt 944 engine. NA power = less moving parts and more reliable.

Overall a 2600-3000lb car with 400hp/tq of NA power.... ummm yes please.

To this day i dont know why I hated these conversions so much when i first heard about them. I thought they were an abomination. But comon, its a 944, and overall its A CAR (a porsche yes, but still a car).
I love the things now, and im at a cross roads where i am going to rebuilt my 944 engine and get a vitesse stage 2-3, or do a ls1-2 conversion.
I would love to buy a beater 944 and make a project v-8 out of it, and have my turbo as well, but well see.

So many people still hate and bitch about the v-8's, but these are all coming from people who have no experience or time with one. Everyone who has one or has been around on raves about them (what are you going to believe speculation or experience) . I agree some of the v-8 guys are dicks but so are the "purists".

Just wish the conversion was a little bit cheaper.

P.S. one question, is the 18k with labor or are you doing it yourself?? I would plan on doing it myself ( o noes!) if I did do it, and if 18k is cost without labor then YIKES!!!

Marks951

I'll take one of those conversions and drive the ........heck out of it. It looks like A LOT of FUN! I am a Porsche and Ford fan, but the LS-1 and a 951 should be a GREAT combination.

TonyG

Guys

I can honestly say I've been "around the block" with 944 turbos. And if you look at what I've done over the last 8 years, it should be obvious.

And, I'm not a fan of hybrids.

But, by the same token, I'm tired of pouring in HUGE money to get the power I want, only to be shackled by the problems the Porsche never addressed. And in all fairness to Porsche, they did not design the engines for the power that I want and that I have achieved (as many of you have).

Nevertheless, the problems of these cars, the oil leaks, the burnt oil smell, the too-much-****-packed-into-a-too-small-space thing is just getting old.

I've seen a few V8 conversions. And they ranged from just OK, to "the guy that did this should have his tools taken away".

So why not do a quality job? Do it right... open check book, and see what happens.

That's exactly what we did. And the conversion was not simply the engine install, but the suspension, brakes,tires/wheels, bushings, axles, transaxle, clutch, exhaust, oil and cooling systems, light engine and electronic upgrades, as well as taking the car on a fairly serious weight diet (2640lbs wet with 1/3 tank fuel).

The issue here is a FUN car to drive a little on the street, to and from the track, and some more on the track. And to beat the hell out of most of the cars we run with that are as expensive as this car, but with another digit added to the price (at a minimum).

It just so happens that the car is flat out --- cool. It sounds cool and it looks cool. And it's got big ***** packed in. And while it's not been track tested yet (it will be on 4/19/2006 if there's no rain), I'm sure there will be zero dissapointments.

The car is a flat out bully. That's what makes it cool.

Yes there might be a couple of cars here that when boosted within an inch of their life, manage to produce more power... but 99% of them can't do it for the duration of 45 minute race at full load, in 100F weather at that power level on a fast track like WSIR. And if this was really a big issue to me, which it's not, you can bet your kids college fund that I could get soooooo much power out of the LS1, it wouldn't even be a race. The 1% that can, have a ton of money invested in it in order for it to be able to do so. Call JME and ask them what their 2.6L full race package costs (you should be sitting down when you do this...).

In the end, if you think that the 951 engine is more reliable .... great. I disagree. We can agree to disagree. Who cares...

It's about the fun of it!

TonyG

TonyG

ztnedman1

The $18k price was a number I threw out there, running through the numbers in my head. The adding what I would charge to do the conversion.. which is $6k (t's a LOT of work to do it right.)

You could probably do the same thing for $12k-$15k if you did the labor yourself and if you were a shop and could open up wholesale accounts everywhere (in order to get the good pricing on parts)... and depending on what you "cheaped out on" and what you "did right".

TonyG

TonyG

Marks951

>>>I'll take one of those conversions and drive the ........heck out of it. It looks like A LOT of FUN! I am a Porsche and Ford fan, but the LS-1 and a 951 should be a GREAT combination.<<<

Wait until I post some video of the car here next week.

You guys will have scrape marks on the bottom of your chins when you see this...

TonyG