300 Flywheel HP on stock boost, Stock turbo, stock cam, stock head Possible?
09-09-2005, 10:36 AM
#46
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Of course, if we are really talking about a Turbo Cup car and not a standard Turbo, then it's a completely different ballgame. As was already pointed out, the Turbo Cup cars could run up to 1 bar (14.5psi), which very well could give you 300 flywheel HP.
09-09-2005, 10:44 AM
#47
Rennlist Member
Joe,
Also, the concern posted by "carreracup21" about a progressed F class 944T using a turbo cup chip isnt legal. It states right in the rule book that you can swap the DME chip only for a prepared modification, the KLR chip must remain stock.
MAF setups are a two class progressed bump, so my guess is if you wanted to meet the rules, putting a cup chip set in an 87 F class turbo would put it in D class by itself, and then if you dropped 10% weight, you would be in C. Which probably is pretty reasonable. But a cup chip set would not work very well at all in an 87 Turbo since it has the K26/6 turbocharger (which the chips were not designed for), so you would be better off using some aftermarket chip set for the K26/6 cars.
Also, the concern posted by "carreracup21" about a progressed F class 944T using a turbo cup chip isnt legal. It states right in the rule book that you can swap the DME chip only for a prepared modification, the KLR chip must remain stock.
MAF setups are a two class progressed bump, so my guess is if you wanted to meet the rules, putting a cup chip set in an 87 F class turbo would put it in D class by itself, and then if you dropped 10% weight, you would be in C. Which probably is pretty reasonable. But a cup chip set would not work very well at all in an 87 Turbo since it has the K26/6 turbocharger (which the chips were not designed for), so you would be better off using some aftermarket chip set for the K26/6 cars.
09-09-2005, 11:23 AM
#48
Race Director
Thread Starter
Jim B,
I see you found the thread where this was brought up.
It was my assertion that a k26/6 951 could never make 300 and be anthing other than a GT3 car. Not legally anyway. I would agree that a k26/8 951 S could be closer to 300 hp, but still doubt it could get there. Factory turbo Cups. Well possible if they are running 14.5 psi, but the real turbo Cups are quite rare as you mentioned may have been worked over long ago.
Bottomline is just because a few Turbo Cups might be making big hp it does not mean a street 951 K26/6 or k26/8 convered to a stock/prepared race car will ever legally make as much.
I see you found the thread where this was brought up.
It was my assertion that a k26/6 951 could never make 300 and be anthing other than a GT3 car. Not legally anyway. I would agree that a k26/8 951 S could be closer to 300 hp, but still doubt it could get there. Factory turbo Cups. Well possible if they are running 14.5 psi, but the real turbo Cups are quite rare as you mentioned may have been worked over long ago.
Bottomline is just because a few Turbo Cups might be making big hp it does not mean a street 951 K26/6 or k26/8 convered to a stock/prepared race car will ever legally make as much.
09-09-2005, 11:36 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by M758
Bottomline is just because a few Turbo Cups might be making big hp it does not mean a street 951 K26/6 or k26/8 convered to a stock/prepared race car will ever legally make as much.
Correct.
09-09-2005, 11:49 AM
#50
Three Wheelin'
Joe, it sounds like your carreracup buddy's claim is pretty unsupported, I wouldn't give it much weight.
I think we'd all agree that the 300hp mark with the stock components you've mentioned and stock boost levels is fantasy. Either that guy was just overestimating the car, or the car wasn't running that combo.
It would be relatively easy to hide an EBC that controlled the stock cycling valve separately from the DME. Hide it way up under the dash and tap into the stock harness where no one would look. The only way they could possibly know you were running higher boost would be to tear into your car or ride along and monitor things with their own gauges. You could even tweak a boost gauge to read 10 psi when you're really making 15 or 18. Or you could just have stock and race boost settings easily switchable.
I'm not advocating cheating or anything, just suggesting one way someone else might be doing it.
I think we'd all agree that the 300hp mark with the stock components you've mentioned and stock boost levels is fantasy. Either that guy was just overestimating the car, or the car wasn't running that combo.
It would be relatively easy to hide an EBC that controlled the stock cycling valve separately from the DME. Hide it way up under the dash and tap into the stock harness where no one would look. The only way they could possibly know you were running higher boost would be to tear into your car or ride along and monitor things with their own gauges. You could even tweak a boost gauge to read 10 psi when you're really making 15 or 18. Or you could just have stock and race boost settings easily switchable.
I'm not advocating cheating or anything, just suggesting one way someone else might be doing it.
09-09-2005, 12:33 PM
#51
Race Director
Thread Starter
I'd agree that there are many ways to get to 300 hp and still "appear" legal. My argument was that a doing and actually being legal was not possible.
The issues came up since carreracup races in D. PCA has some rule change proposals that may allow cars to run 10% less than stock by moving up a class. That got him a little concerned at bunch fast 951's would take over D stock. My feeling is that the 951's would be competitive, but not overly so. Certainly a 951 at 300 hp and 2700 lbs would be quite fast as compared to the current class leading 2760lbs 250 hp RS America. Figure in that 2700 lbs 951 at more realistic 250 hp and falls into place.
He was using that as an example of how at 10% weight rediction as a 1 class bump in all PCA classes would not be fair.
Clearly you can't say a car is not classed right becuse it is too powerful if it is too powerful since it is not following the rules.
The issues came up since carreracup races in D. PCA has some rule change proposals that may allow cars to run 10% less than stock by moving up a class. That got him a little concerned at bunch fast 951's would take over D stock. My feeling is that the 951's would be competitive, but not overly so. Certainly a 951 at 300 hp and 2700 lbs would be quite fast as compared to the current class leading 2760lbs 250 hp RS America. Figure in that 2700 lbs 951 at more realistic 250 hp and falls into place.
He was using that as an example of how at 10% weight rediction as a 1 class bump in all PCA classes would not be fair.
Clearly you can't say a car is not classed right becuse it is too powerful if it is too powerful since it is not following the rules.
09-09-2005, 01:14 PM
#53
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On the turbo cup cars
220 bhp (1986) --> k26/6 with stock boost
250 bhp --> k26/8 with stock boost
310 bhp (advertised "290 hp") for 1990 trophy in France --> k26/8 with 1.1 to 1.15 bar
So, no way to get 300 bhp with "stock" boost; except if you consider 1.1 bar to be stock for latest cup cars ?
220 bhp (1986) --> k26/6 with stock boost
250 bhp --> k26/8 with stock boost
310 bhp (advertised "290 hp") for 1990 trophy in France --> k26/8 with 1.1 to 1.15 bar
So, no way to get 300 bhp with "stock" boost; except if you consider 1.1 bar to be stock for latest cup cars ?
