DanG

Ok, rock on. What's a PIC cost? Under $100 right? That would be so sweet, PNP megasquirt on a 944 would be one step closer. And rigging a cam sensor for COP conversion later would be cake. I'll wait till I'm near the limits of wasted spark ignition first.

If you could get this PIC convertor to work for TEC3 and all those other 60-2 systems you'd have a nice little business venture on your hands. Sell them for $200 each and the stand alone crowd would love you for it. Heck, sell them for P-cars, Audis, and Bimmers with the minor code tweaks between them. As long as you don't start charinging Motec-esque prices, you'd be doing a service to all three camps and still be able to pull some cash in on the side.

theedge

A lowend pic chip would be ohhh $15-25USD or so I think. Add to that the hardware to program it, which is cheap, and it runs off the printer port of a computer.

Dunno about selling them, thats a buttload of work

macnewma

Brian, are you using the MSI or MSII board? If not MSII, why not?

Also, why can't this PIC code be ported into the MSnS code or just the plain MS code?

smkn951

omg i have a headache.....
i'm no EE nor am i able to comprehend all these stuff.
please anyone please......shed some light this way
so far it replaces the dme/klr
it controls the fuel, air, spark
it's a stand alone
correct?
of course it'll add hp right?
what about futre upgrades to the car? like bigger injectors, turbo, maf, ic, exhaust etc.
will it be able to adapt to the changes or a new one needs to purchased
tia everyone.
ps i learn so much and save so much and drive the car more thanks to everyone

theedge

Im using the MSI. I went with it so I could run the MSn'Spark-Extra firmware, which doesnt run in the MSII. It has more wheel decoding options I think, boost control (just needs a solenoid), nitrous, water injection, shift lights, and Anti-Rev/Traction control, and some more stuff. MSII doesnt have a lot of that. I want the anti-rev, which should be handy since I daily drive my car rain, snow or shine Also I want to try boost control with it. And water injection. And intercooler sprayer (Extra has some outputs that can be configured based on MAP pressure, RPM, temperature, etc). I dont think MSII has those extra outputs.

The MS can use the speed/reference sensors, theres nothing uncommon, special, or problematic about the sensors THEMSELVES. The "problem" lies with the flywheel gear. It has 136 teeth, each of which is a "pulse" or a "blip". 136 teeth X 7000RPM+ = 952,000 pulses every minute / 60 seconds = 15,867 per second. Thats far too many pulses for the MegaSquirts chip to cope with, and still do all the calculations and such.

Its still up in the air as to if the MSII processor could cope, its four times faster than the MSI (24MHz vs 8Mhz).

All the PIC box does is downsample the signal. Its usually a fairly slow chip, but since its dedicated to that task its well suited.

macnewma

I see. So what does the PIC box downsample to? 60-2 or can it downsample to EDIS 36-1 and run that ignition without the 36-1 wheel?

I like the idea of EDIS, but I don't want to adapt the 36-1 wheel if I don't have to. Can you do distributorless with the PIC downsampling to 60-2?

DanG

so far it replaces the dme/klr
it controls the fuel, air, spark
it's a stand alone
correct?
right, right, & right. You can exchange the word "Megasquirt" with "TEC3" or "Motec" if you'd like. Althought you're wallet will be a tad heavier if you use the first option.

of course it'll add hp right?
Its not a power adder by itself. It should enable more power to be made safer. Proper control of fuel and spark should give slightly higher hp/tq levels at equal boost, and also allow the boost to be turned up a bit safely.

what about futre upgrades to the car? like bigger injectors, turbo, maf, ic, exhaust etc.
will it be able to adapt to the changes or a new one needs to purchased
tia everyone.
The MS will take all of those in stride. Everything is adjustable and tweakable with the MS. Also, no MAF needed at all. The MS is MAP based and until you pass 20psi, no need to upgrade that sensor. Any change that will affect the engine's Volumetric Efficiency (ie: turbo, IC, exhaust) would need the VE tables tweaked. With a WBO2 sensor, that shouldn't be too difficult. Much easier and probably more accurate than getting new chips burnt.

theedge

It can be used several ways, it can be run as a piggyback to the DME/KLR, where it controls the fuel injectors only. This is like an SMT6, where it will modify just the fuel. This is simple, theres no need to worry about the speed/reference sensors, coilpacks, etc. With this, you would splice it into the line that goes to the spark coil and thats its RPM input. Splice it into the other sensor lines (Coolant, etc) and the Throttle Sensor and its good to go. This is easier to tune as well, since you dont have to worry about the ignition. Here you dont need extra trigger wheels, EDIS, etc.

OR

It can be run as a full standalone, replacing the DME/KLR entirely and controlling fuel and spark. This is where it gets harder, dealing with trigger wheels, more tuning etc. More complexity BUT more control.

MegaSquirt doesnt use a MAF sensor. It uses a MAP sensor. As long as the MAP sensor can handle the max boost pressure you want to run, you can do whatever you want turbo wise. Big turbo, little turbo, change turbos, more displacement, whatever. To change the MAP sensor is $40US or so, some soldering, and some code changes. The basic one will support up to 20PSI, theres another that will do 30 or so, and one thatll do 40. As long as youre using it as a standalone, you can ditch the AFM or MAF.

Bigger injectors are no issues, just change some settings and retune if needed. The V3 board (its the current latest and greatest, the blue one I used) will support high or low impedence injectors (no ballast resistors or anything like that). Older ones will support low impedence injectors with an extra board called the Flyback Board. The V3 has that integrated.

For upgrades, like I said as long as the MAP can cope and youre working within the abilities of the MS (No Coil on Plug on a V8, that kinda stuff), it will do whatever you want. If you make changes, you just retune the MS. One MS will last you for whatever you want to do. Its running everything from snowmobiles and seadoos, to motorcycles, to twin turbo drag trucks.

Bear in mind though, you tune and configure the MegaSquirt from scratch. There are no base maps that you just tweak, unless someone has a similar car and is willing to send you his config files. Tuning from scratch has its own inherent difficulties, challenges, and all that.

The MegaSquirt wont be for everyone. Im going with it because something like the TEC3 is way out of my price range, but I need a standalone now. Im also going with the MS because I love tinkering and its unlikely that my car will go for long periods of time between changes/mods/upgrades. If all youre doing is a turbo and a MAF and thats it for years kinda thing, then a chip is quick and easy and reliable. Or an SMT6 from Vitesse, which comes with base maps and support and someone to call at funny hours when you have a question

DanG

Macnewma, read this page...

http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/select.html

The general theme of megasquirt is "anything in, anything out". You can mix and match your inputs and output endlessly.

With this PIC, we'd be inputing to the MS using the "missing toothed wheel decoder" option, with the PIC simulating a 60-1 wheel (according to Brian). The output could then be handled in a number of ways. The simplest in my mind would be having the IGBT drivers built into the new V3.0 PCB to power the coils directly. With that setup, you can use whatever coil you choose, and there's no need to use EDIS for anything. But you could certainly still use EDIS coils if you wanted to. Or GM coils. Or Honda coils... you get the idea.

MichelleJD

Keep us up to date. Thanx. I'm going to stand-alone this fall with COP. I've already got Hyabusa COP's (4) sitting in the carriage house waiting for a controller. I'm thinking of adapting an AEM EMS. I have a dead KLR/DME that I can wire the connectors from. It's more $$ than MS, but is a little less trouble I think. I know you're gonna love the MS

theedge

Ill have to find out what it downsamples to, exactly. I emailed the developer with an offer to support it, for Porsches, BMWs, and Audis prolly. Just gotta wait on his reponse. If he gets back to me today or tonight ill post about it. Im away on a short trip tomorrow, wont be back till 2 or 3AM on saturday so if he replies sometime friday Ill post about it on saturday.

toddk911

So who here is gonna build these and sell them to us

DanG

Hold off on buying that AEM. I'm guessing after your favorite wrench, Geoff, uses the MS on our FSAE engine, he'll be singing its tune as well. If you're not into soldering this kind of thing, the pre-built & tested systems are still $100s less than an AEM. And the ease of use + support for MS is probably 100x that of the other stand alone systems out there, other than just bugging the vendor you bought it from. Once the few of us leading the charge on the 944 MS development get our cars running (or rather, flying) we'll have more than enough info for those that want to go the same path.

I might end up using those same Hyabusa COPs, so you'd have an even easier time getting yours working.

macnewma

I get it now. Basically we would reinterpret our speed and ref sensors to give a 60-2 output (or similar) to the MS. The MS would then process that info and send out a coil trigger signal on one of two channels based on ignition table and setup parameters. This would then fire some sort of coilpack (your choice).

That would be exceptionally slick and easy if we can get that PIC controller working smoothly. I will probably order a MSnS-Extra setup once we get the PIC controller ironed out.

Definitely keep us posted. I am sure there are at least 4-5 that would be interested in doing this right now.

Michelle, based on my research, I agree with Dan on holding off on the AEM. It is doable, but you will get virtually no support if it doesn't work as expected. The biggest advantage AEM has over other EMSs is it PnP capability, but that is lost on us. It is a nice unit, but I think there is a better future with the MS.

Campeck

is the MS laptop tunable? or does it only do reburnt proms?