Vitesse Stage III Installed and Running
08-01-2005, 04:06 PM
#1
Vitesse Stage III Installed and Running
Just thought I would give a little update on my project so far. I installed the following on my car over the last few months:
Vitesse Stage III Turbo Kit
Lindsey Racing Hard Pipes
Lindsey Racing Catch Can
Iceshark Light Kit
I've put about 1000 miles on the car so far and here are my initial results:
Iceshark Light Kit: On dim the lighting is very direct and lights up the road directly in front of the car. I think I still need better peripheral lighting (ie: ditches, etc.) and hopefully when I install the euro driving lights that will improve. On brights the lights are amazing. Think supernova bright. I'm sure that I can see 10 times further than I did with the yellowish light put out by the old sealed beams. The kit is definately worth the money and Dan Wray has been awesome to deal with.
Lindsey Hard Pipes: They seem good enough although fairly expensive for what they are. Performance gains are probably minimal but they do look nice. I had couple of minor issues with them. First, the hose clamps provided were too short to fit when the pipes were inserted in the hoses. I ended up purchasing other clamps to make things work. I might suggest to David that he give us the option of purchasing the nice T-Bar clamps with this kit as they seem to be the clamp of choice for intercooler connectors on other vehicles. Second, the hose to connect the hard pipe to the throttle body was twice as long as it needed to be. It's a minor annoyance but I thought they would have had everything measured correctly before sending them out. Finally the pipe from the turbo to the intercooler appears to be hitting my hood. I believe I have it pushed in as far as it will go but tonight I will loosen up the clamps and see if I can get it to go down any further.
Lindsay Racing Catch Can: The hose going from the crankcase ventilation to the large vacuum spider under the intake manifold was cracked on my car. I tried to get a replacement from Porsche but they could only find the entire assembly in their system. Since I only needed the little 90 degree hose I didn't see the need in paying for an entire assembly. So I decided to go with the Lindsay Racing Catch Can instead. However, it turns out there is an issue when using the catch can as it is believed that the factory system uses vacuum to pull vapors from the crankcase and thus the hole that the vapors are pulled through is fairly small. John w/Vitesse was concerned that going to a catch can would lead to increased crankcase pressures which could cause my Stage III turbo to smoke. I spoke to David Lindsey and they recommend enlarging the hole to allow more flow. Unfortunately, the standard way to enlarge the hole is to drill it out and that requires removing the large plastic "tank" where your oil filler is otherwise you would get plastic shavings all over your crankcase. The only way to remove this tank is to remove the turbo and since I just finished installing my turbo there was no way that I wanted to go through the process of taking it off again. David Lindsey recommended trying to melt out the hole so I heated up a punch, inserted it in the hole (holding it with a pair of vice grips so that it couldn't be dropped into the engine) and proceeded to enlarge the hole. It took all of 10 minutes and by being very careful I was able to prevent anything from dropping into crankcase. I post this hoping to let others who are changing their turbos know that if you want to go with a catch can you should make the decision BEFORE putting the new turbo on so that you can do the job properly by drilling out the hole and avoid the stress of trying to make sure nothing falls into your engine. I was sent the wrong catch can (the one I ordered was supposed to be polished with the mounting bracket welded on but what I received was an unpolished universal kit) but David had been very helpful and is sending me the proper one without asking me to send the old one back first. So far my experience with David and his shop has been good and I can't wait to get the proper catch can installed.
Vitesse Stage III Turbo Kit: I recieved the Turbo kit from John very soon after payment was made and started to tear into my car. I had never attempted something of this magnitude before and was a little apprehensive about doing things properly. Fortunately there is a lot of information (write ups) on the web (Clarks Garage, etc.) that helped a ton with the job. There were a few surprises along the way. For those thinking of doing this themselves or having someone else do it I want to make it clear that the turbo is not a "bolt on" affair. The local Porsche dealership had quoted me something like 13 hours to R&R the turbo but I know now that if I had taken it to them I would be looking at far more time taken as there was a bunch of custom stuff to be done. For starters I had to grind down the alternator case, grind down the pedestal base that that turbo sits on and cut away large portions of the bracket that holds the front of the intake manifold. I also had to purchase a low profile water temp sensor and modify the water lines from the turbo so that the intake manifold would clear everthing. John very politely says that all of these things "may" have to be done in the instructions that come with the kit. I would like to let everyong who reads this and is considering doing the turbo swap know that you should "plan" on doing all the items I described above. Don't go into this swap believing that it's a quick bolt it in place affair. You will also need to do some fooling around with the j-pipe and MAF to get everything to fit so that you don't have interference with the headlights and hood. I still have a little adjusting to do on mine to get everything to clear to my satisfaction but it's good enough to run with. As for John's customer service I can say he has been prompt and helpful when I needed it. He originally sent the wrong chips (my car is an 89) and said he would send me a replacement right away. Instead of sending me just another chip he actually sent me one of those fancy new circuit boards that he sells. He definately did not have to do that. When I got everything finally together I followed the initial start up instructions to the letter. I pulled the coil plug, pulled the fuel pump fuse, cranked until oil pressure was indicated on my gauges, etc. Finally the moment that I was long waiting for came about. I put the coil wire back on and installed the fuel pump fuse and nervously turned the key. It took only a few seconds and the car sputtered once and fired before settling into a nice idle. I let the car idle for around 5 minutes and checked for any obvious leaks. Overall I was very impressed that the car ran as smoothly as it does and didn't give me any grief on start up.
On this project I have dealt with 3 different vendors and can recommend them all to the rest of the group here. Hopefully I will continue to have good luck dealing with them in the future as they will see future business from me I am sure.
So the question I'm sure you all want answered is "How does it go?" The first thing that I noticed was the insane turbo howl that I'm sure scares pretty much anyone I pass. A friend told me that it sounded like a big truck going by. It also spools quicker than my old turbo. The old turbo on my car was a K27/8 that, if I remember correctly, would hit 15 lbs of boost at around 3600 rpm. With the new turbo I am hitting 15 psi at around 3300 rpm. The power delivery feels very different from my old k27. I remember that with the k27 the car felt like it had nothing and then the turbo would hit and slam you into the seat. The Vitesse turbo feels much more linear and doesn't "feel" like it has a much larger "push" than my old K27. I'm not saying that it isn't making more power - I sure that it is - but because it doesn't have the same on/off feel it doesn't give you the same sensation of power. It feels more like a large displacement normally aspirated engine now. Another thing I noticed is that the car seems to be making power all the way to redline now whereas before it would run out of steam. I have read stories on this forum of guys with the Stage II kit that claim their cars are insanely fast and that they spin their tires in the first 3 gears and almost drag their bumpers when they floor it. My car does none of these things so in that respect I was a little dissappointed. Flooring it in 2nd gear doesn't result in any wheelspin at all. The car just squats and pulls which is a good thing I guess but makes me wonder how much power I am making at the moment.
So the next thing for me to do is schedule a little dyno time and installation of the wide band O2 and SMT6. My old turbo made 270 rwhp and 307 lb-ft of torque. I'm guessing that I'm a little north of 300 rwhp horsepower right now and I'm hoping that with some tuning I can get somewhere north of 350 rwhp. Maybe then I can get closer to the some of the claimed performance that is mentioned by others with this kit. Stay tuned!
Vitesse Stage III Turbo Kit
Lindsey Racing Hard Pipes
Lindsey Racing Catch Can
Iceshark Light Kit
I've put about 1000 miles on the car so far and here are my initial results:
Iceshark Light Kit: On dim the lighting is very direct and lights up the road directly in front of the car. I think I still need better peripheral lighting (ie: ditches, etc.) and hopefully when I install the euro driving lights that will improve. On brights the lights are amazing. Think supernova bright. I'm sure that I can see 10 times further than I did with the yellowish light put out by the old sealed beams. The kit is definately worth the money and Dan Wray has been awesome to deal with.
Lindsey Hard Pipes: They seem good enough although fairly expensive for what they are. Performance gains are probably minimal but they do look nice. I had couple of minor issues with them. First, the hose clamps provided were too short to fit when the pipes were inserted in the hoses. I ended up purchasing other clamps to make things work. I might suggest to David that he give us the option of purchasing the nice T-Bar clamps with this kit as they seem to be the clamp of choice for intercooler connectors on other vehicles. Second, the hose to connect the hard pipe to the throttle body was twice as long as it needed to be. It's a minor annoyance but I thought they would have had everything measured correctly before sending them out. Finally the pipe from the turbo to the intercooler appears to be hitting my hood. I believe I have it pushed in as far as it will go but tonight I will loosen up the clamps and see if I can get it to go down any further.
Lindsay Racing Catch Can: The hose going from the crankcase ventilation to the large vacuum spider under the intake manifold was cracked on my car. I tried to get a replacement from Porsche but they could only find the entire assembly in their system. Since I only needed the little 90 degree hose I didn't see the need in paying for an entire assembly. So I decided to go with the Lindsay Racing Catch Can instead. However, it turns out there is an issue when using the catch can as it is believed that the factory system uses vacuum to pull vapors from the crankcase and thus the hole that the vapors are pulled through is fairly small. John w/Vitesse was concerned that going to a catch can would lead to increased crankcase pressures which could cause my Stage III turbo to smoke. I spoke to David Lindsey and they recommend enlarging the hole to allow more flow. Unfortunately, the standard way to enlarge the hole is to drill it out and that requires removing the large plastic "tank" where your oil filler is otherwise you would get plastic shavings all over your crankcase. The only way to remove this tank is to remove the turbo and since I just finished installing my turbo there was no way that I wanted to go through the process of taking it off again. David Lindsey recommended trying to melt out the hole so I heated up a punch, inserted it in the hole (holding it with a pair of vice grips so that it couldn't be dropped into the engine) and proceeded to enlarge the hole. It took all of 10 minutes and by being very careful I was able to prevent anything from dropping into crankcase. I post this hoping to let others who are changing their turbos know that if you want to go with a catch can you should make the decision BEFORE putting the new turbo on so that you can do the job properly by drilling out the hole and avoid the stress of trying to make sure nothing falls into your engine. I was sent the wrong catch can (the one I ordered was supposed to be polished with the mounting bracket welded on but what I received was an unpolished universal kit) but David had been very helpful and is sending me the proper one without asking me to send the old one back first. So far my experience with David and his shop has been good and I can't wait to get the proper catch can installed.
Vitesse Stage III Turbo Kit: I recieved the Turbo kit from John very soon after payment was made and started to tear into my car. I had never attempted something of this magnitude before and was a little apprehensive about doing things properly. Fortunately there is a lot of information (write ups) on the web (Clarks Garage, etc.) that helped a ton with the job. There were a few surprises along the way. For those thinking of doing this themselves or having someone else do it I want to make it clear that the turbo is not a "bolt on" affair. The local Porsche dealership had quoted me something like 13 hours to R&R the turbo but I know now that if I had taken it to them I would be looking at far more time taken as there was a bunch of custom stuff to be done. For starters I had to grind down the alternator case, grind down the pedestal base that that turbo sits on and cut away large portions of the bracket that holds the front of the intake manifold. I also had to purchase a low profile water temp sensor and modify the water lines from the turbo so that the intake manifold would clear everthing. John very politely says that all of these things "may" have to be done in the instructions that come with the kit. I would like to let everyong who reads this and is considering doing the turbo swap know that you should "plan" on doing all the items I described above. Don't go into this swap believing that it's a quick bolt it in place affair. You will also need to do some fooling around with the j-pipe and MAF to get everything to fit so that you don't have interference with the headlights and hood. I still have a little adjusting to do on mine to get everything to clear to my satisfaction but it's good enough to run with. As for John's customer service I can say he has been prompt and helpful when I needed it. He originally sent the wrong chips (my car is an 89) and said he would send me a replacement right away. Instead of sending me just another chip he actually sent me one of those fancy new circuit boards that he sells. He definately did not have to do that. When I got everything finally together I followed the initial start up instructions to the letter. I pulled the coil plug, pulled the fuel pump fuse, cranked until oil pressure was indicated on my gauges, etc. Finally the moment that I was long waiting for came about. I put the coil wire back on and installed the fuel pump fuse and nervously turned the key. It took only a few seconds and the car sputtered once and fired before settling into a nice idle. I let the car idle for around 5 minutes and checked for any obvious leaks. Overall I was very impressed that the car ran as smoothly as it does and didn't give me any grief on start up.
On this project I have dealt with 3 different vendors and can recommend them all to the rest of the group here. Hopefully I will continue to have good luck dealing with them in the future as they will see future business from me I am sure.
So the question I'm sure you all want answered is "How does it go?" The first thing that I noticed was the insane turbo howl that I'm sure scares pretty much anyone I pass. A friend told me that it sounded like a big truck going by. It also spools quicker than my old turbo. The old turbo on my car was a K27/8 that, if I remember correctly, would hit 15 lbs of boost at around 3600 rpm. With the new turbo I am hitting 15 psi at around 3300 rpm. The power delivery feels very different from my old k27. I remember that with the k27 the car felt like it had nothing and then the turbo would hit and slam you into the seat. The Vitesse turbo feels much more linear and doesn't "feel" like it has a much larger "push" than my old K27. I'm not saying that it isn't making more power - I sure that it is - but because it doesn't have the same on/off feel it doesn't give you the same sensation of power. It feels more like a large displacement normally aspirated engine now. Another thing I noticed is that the car seems to be making power all the way to redline now whereas before it would run out of steam. I have read stories on this forum of guys with the Stage II kit that claim their cars are insanely fast and that they spin their tires in the first 3 gears and almost drag their bumpers when they floor it. My car does none of these things so in that respect I was a little dissappointed. Flooring it in 2nd gear doesn't result in any wheelspin at all. The car just squats and pulls which is a good thing I guess but makes me wonder how much power I am making at the moment.
So the next thing for me to do is schedule a little dyno time and installation of the wide band O2 and SMT6. My old turbo made 270 rwhp and 307 lb-ft of torque. I'm guessing that I'm a little north of 300 rwhp horsepower right now and I'm hoping that with some tuning I can get somewhere north of 350 rwhp. Maybe then I can get closer to the some of the claimed performance that is mentioned by others with this kit. Stay tuned!
08-01-2005, 04:24 PM
#2
Race Director
Soloracer, if you do a wee search you can see how people have had to modify the LR catch can to recirculate using a moroso (sp?) vent cap. I used to have a catch can, but changed to a recirculating one because of oil vapour fumes.
08-01-2005, 04:28 PM
#3
That Guy
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thats really cool man. You need to upgrade your fuel system (if you haven't already) to larger injectors, pump, and fuel regulator. That with a properly tuned stage 3 can get you north of 400 rwhp!!! if you really want you can send special tool a couple pm's he has the stage III so he might be able to give you a couple pointers. You need to get that thing to the dyno before you get swarmed by rennlisters!
-Ian
-Ian
08-01-2005, 04:31 PM
#4
Race Director
I-dogg, if he gets properly sized injectors, he wont need a new fuel regulator... 
But he will need injectors for sure and a fuel pump if he makes over 350WHP...
But he will need injectors for sure and a fuel pump if he makes over 350WHP...
08-01-2005, 04:33 PM
#5
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Solo Racer, Glad you got your car back together and thank you for the update.
Few comments...
I strongly recommend you route the catch can back to the J-pipe.. I have seen too many problems when not routed.
For the engine mount, there is no need to modify it. Either ground the compressor bolt (one out of 6) or just remove it. Wish you contacted me when you were doing the install.
The water pipe is a pain, we provide fittings to make simpler, but modifications are still needed. If the pipe is bent properly, you can reuse the stock temp sensor. Will post pictures later.
Keep in mind that the software you now have is setup for pump & race gas externally selectable (described in the instructions I sent you).
Few comments...
I strongly recommend you route the catch can back to the J-pipe.. I have seen too many problems when not routed.
For the engine mount, there is no need to modify it. Either ground the compressor bolt (one out of 6) or just remove it. Wish you contacted me when you were doing the install.
The water pipe is a pain, we provide fittings to make simpler, but modifications are still needed. If the pipe is bent properly, you can reuse the stock temp sensor. Will post pictures later.
Keep in mind that the software you now have is setup for pump & race gas externally selectable (described in the instructions I sent you).
08-01-2005, 04:35 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Solo,
Are you running 15 psi? If so, I think you're quite a bit short of the efficiency range of that turbo. A lot of others are more qualified to comment on this than I am, but I think you want to be running at least 18 psi to really experience the benefits of that turbo.
-Jon
Are you running 15 psi? If so, I think you're quite a bit short of the efficiency range of that turbo. A lot of others are more qualified to comment on this than I am, but I think you want to be running at least 18 psi to really experience the benefits of that turbo.
-Jon
08-01-2005, 04:40 PM
#7
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The software is designed to work with injectors and fuel pressure as indicated in the instructions.
Stage 3 turbo is designed to be fairly linear. You should be hitting 1bar boost in the 3200-3400rpm range (when using a dual port WG). Of course once it's fine tuned! Make sure you start with a blank MAP in the SMT6 when fine tuning.
Stage 3 turbo is designed to be fairly linear. You should be hitting 1bar boost in the 3200-3400rpm range (when using a dual port WG). Of course once it's fine tuned! Make sure you start with a blank MAP in the SMT6 when fine tuning.
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08-01-2005, 04:54 PM
#8
NZ951: Thanks for the tip. I'll look into it.
Turbo X: I also bought 72 lb injectors from John and am running a 3 bar FPR. I bought an upgraded fuel pump from Lindsey and have to install it yet.
Fast951: Hi John! When you say "route the catch can back to the j-pipe" are you referring to the j-pipe up by the MAF? Or do you mean that vacuum pipe that normally sits under the intake manifold? Can you explain what routing back to the j-pipe will do? Just want to understand is all. As for the grinding of the engine mount my turbo hit the mount in 2 places. One of the bolts on the back of the compressor was hitting below the flange on the mount so I removed the bolt. The turbo still did not fit and after using a little hylomer as a marking agent it was evident that the compressor housing itself was hitting the center part of the flange. I had the choice to grind either the back of the compressor housing or the mount - I chose to grind the mount. After a little grinding the turbo fit so it had to be what was hitting. You are right in that the water pipes are a pain. Your solution to move the lines so that they clear closer to the compressor outlet works good but did require me to cut the bracket for the intake manifold. I ended up bending my water lines by sticking a bar in the end of them and pushing down while heating the lines up with a torch. I only needed a few degrees and easily got it down to where it would clear. I'm running pump gas currently so it's set on the pump gas setting.
Jon: I don't know where the efficiency range of this turbo is but am only running 15 psi due to John's recommendation that I don't exceed 15 psi without race fuel. I believe there might be head gasket concerns if I were to push 20 psi without race fuel. Am I correct?
Turbo X: I also bought 72 lb injectors from John and am running a 3 bar FPR. I bought an upgraded fuel pump from Lindsey and have to install it yet.
Fast951: Hi John! When you say "route the catch can back to the j-pipe" are you referring to the j-pipe up by the MAF? Or do you mean that vacuum pipe that normally sits under the intake manifold? Can you explain what routing back to the j-pipe will do? Just want to understand is all. As for the grinding of the engine mount my turbo hit the mount in 2 places. One of the bolts on the back of the compressor was hitting below the flange on the mount so I removed the bolt. The turbo still did not fit and after using a little hylomer as a marking agent it was evident that the compressor housing itself was hitting the center part of the flange. I had the choice to grind either the back of the compressor housing or the mount - I chose to grind the mount. After a little grinding the turbo fit so it had to be what was hitting. You are right in that the water pipes are a pain. Your solution to move the lines so that they clear closer to the compressor outlet works good but did require me to cut the bracket for the intake manifold. I ended up bending my water lines by sticking a bar in the end of them and pushing down while heating the lines up with a torch. I only needed a few degrees and easily got it down to where it would clear. I'm running pump gas currently so it's set on the pump gas setting.
Jon: I don't know where the efficiency range of this turbo is but am only running 15 psi due to John's recommendation that I don't exceed 15 psi without race fuel. I believe there might be head gasket concerns if I were to push 20 psi without race fuel. Am I correct?
08-01-2005, 05:42 PM
#10
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SoloRacer, I wish you took a picture of the motor mount, this is the first I hear of it. If anyone else with Stage e or 3 had to grind the engine mount to fit please let me know..
The catch cans I have seen come with an air filter on top. Remove the filter and attach a hose going to the J-pipe (same as factory).
On pump gas with the street mapping you might be able to run 16-17psi on 93oct. But I recommend sticking to 15psi (safety margin). Add some xylene to Tuolene or race gas and run all the boost you want.
As far as the water pipe, few have cut the pipe and used a hose to clear the compressor (as pictured in the install document). This is by far the easiest way to handle the pipe.
Assuming a healthy engine, free flowing exhaust, I expect your car to make 310-330rwhp at 1 bar boost on a dynojet.
The catch cans I have seen come with an air filter on top. Remove the filter and attach a hose going to the J-pipe (same as factory).
On pump gas with the street mapping you might be able to run 16-17psi on 93oct. But I recommend sticking to 15psi (safety margin). Add some xylene to Tuolene or race gas and run all the boost you want.
As far as the water pipe, few have cut the pipe and used a hose to clear the compressor (as pictured in the install document). This is by far the easiest way to handle the pipe.
Assuming a healthy engine, free flowing exhaust, I expect your car to make 310-330rwhp at 1 bar boost on a dynojet.
08-01-2005, 07:26 PM
#12
And I had no problems with my throttle spring bracket. Interesting.
John: Just from my seat of the pants feeling I think your power estimate is correct. The catch can does indeed have an air filter on top. I'm thinking of getting a set up like the one that David Floyd has (I have to PM him to find out where he got it.) The problem I have is I removed the cycling valve and cut the bracket that it mounts to so that I could get access to the top of the "tank" to enlarge the hole. Not sure if that will affect me putting the J-pipe back on. Would it be acceptable to use one of the other vacant vacuum fittings that I have left? (Ie: intercooler piping, etc.)
John: Just from my seat of the pants feeling I think your power estimate is correct. The catch can does indeed have an air filter on top. I'm thinking of getting a set up like the one that David Floyd has (I have to PM him to find out where he got it.) The problem I have is I removed the cycling valve and cut the bracket that it mounts to so that I could get access to the top of the "tank" to enlarge the hole. Not sure if that will affect me putting the J-pipe back on. Would it be acceptable to use one of the other vacant vacuum fittings that I have left? (Ie: intercooler piping, etc.)
08-01-2005, 07:53 PM
#13
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Ian, You can experiment by using different vacuum fittings in the J-pipe. I personally would use the largest fitting there to evacuate as much vrankcase fumes as possible. If the crankcase is not being evacuated properly you will notice some smoke out of the tailpipe and in some cases the turbo will flood.
08-01-2005, 08:24 PM
#15
On the j-pipe that connects the MAF to the turbo there are two fittings on the engine side (opposite the fender) that I have currently plugged off. Would it be OK to run a line from the oil tank to the larger of the two fittings? I realize this is before the turbo and probably not a vacuum fitting but if I recall correctly this is where the lines under the intake manifold run to. Does this make sense?