RolexNJ

Zero 10:

I am going to have to agree with Matt H 100%. The stock clutch can handle the power you make. So honestly, stick with that. You just may want to consider a lightened fly wheel. Whether it's an aluminum or maybe a steel fly thats grounded/lightened, which Lindsey sells, I think for about $75.00 bucks? It's a good deal.

RolexNJ

Matt:

How is there chart junk? Thats from the company itself? How can you contest that? You cant. Whether you like their produtcs or not is another story. And a Cup clutch is very good, especially for what Zero10 needs, that I agree. But I dont agree with your BS comments about Spec. You dont make clutches, they do. Case closed.

Matt H

Rolex the case isnt closed. How about we ask some users what they think about the piece clutch they bought that lasted one track day, how about the guys who have never managed to get the chatter gone (so bad that I know a few who even did the clutch again), how about the people that installed them and hated the clutch so much they were ready to sell the car? There are people in each category out there that I can point you to.

Just because they make something doesnt mean they are good at it. Hell, I can whittle you a model airplane, build a website around, and sell it, but dont think it is going to fly you across country.

At the end of the day the user feedback has been less than stellar (downright horrible, from the people I know personally), the pricing is about 2 times too high for what you are buying, and there are better options out there for less money.

As to the chart directly, let me remind you that within the last 3 months they have made changes to it, wanna know why? Because it was wrong before. Do you actually think they tested their "stages" on a car? NO, it is called bench testing, they have no clue how much power those clutches will hold. Let me ask you where they found a DRAG 944 Turbo with 800 ft/lb of torque for testing, they didnt it is that simple. Nothing more than a guess.
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DHC8FO

Just from the standpoint of price I would eliminate the Lindsey Product. If the stock has the engineering for the the original application. Engineers typically work with a factor of 4X required loading to be conservitive. So if your car is only lightly modded, the extra HP is minimal as a percentage of 4x loading.
Beside that, I trust the data that Porsche used to engineer the product was much more comprehensive that an aftermarket product.

facboy

has anybody heard of this before?

Zero10

My primary issue isn't clutch pedal effort. Presently I'm driving my subaru, with a mis-aligned clutch disc, and it's a cable clutch. Pedal effort doesn't get much harder than this. I'm worried I'll snap the cable any day. However, my biggest concerns are smooth engagement, and that it is able to handle the power I am making (not a lot). I pride myself in being a skilled driver, and I also like to make the ride as nice as possible, not at the expense of riding the clutch of course, this is something I would like to keep.
I think you guys are right about the stock clutch being able to handle it.

And, if you guys say that the little springs really are that bad, then I don't want to be one to figure this out the hard way, so I'll stay away from them. At this point, it would appear that the paragon setup is the best, although it is certainly not the cheapest.

I was going to buy the stock kit from Vertex, but it doesn't seem like a good idea if one of those little springs is going to pop out, and bugger everything up.
I'll start saving my pocket change each night for this clutch job
Actually, it's not that bad, I had already put away money to do the clutch in my N/A, I was about half-way there, so now I'm about 1/3 of the way there.

Thanks a lot for the insight and opinions, and I'm sure I'll be back here with more questions!

fortysixandtwo

No. But the crankshaft will see some added thrust force, when the clutch pedal is engaged. The rest of the time the bolts holding the pressure plate and flywheel see the added tension forces.

The only whay that I can imagine it causing a noticable difference in wear. Is if you kept the clutch pedal engaged with the engine running (stop light, traffic) instead of putting the car in nuetral. And did this regularly.

facboy

where would you see the wear (sorry, n00b alert).

NZ951

Zero, the little springs on mine failed. Haiving said that they lasted 18 years! I am sure that the estra power and me being a little hard on it sped up their decline. The cup setup is a proven design, the same as the stock without the little springs. I have one with my KEP PP, which is a very nice setup for street and if you have a reasonably powerful engine. As for Rolex's comments about how much he loves the spec, ask him how many km's he has done in it on his 944 turbo... lol

Matt is pretty much spot on, as he usually is. The spec is a pile od crap for the 944 turbo, Dave Lindsey keeps recommending these to people and they end up hating their cars. He even told me to get one even after I told him about the many complaints, he said the people who complain dont know how to drive their cars.

Zero10

Wow, 18 years is doing pretty good.
Is there anybody who has driven with both the cup clutch and the stock clutch? How different are they in engagement? i.e. is one a lot rougher than the other?...

If the little springs will last 18 years, then there's nothing to worry about, but if their usual life span is less than 10 years, then I'll pass on the stock clutch. I tend to use the clutch a little more than others, so I would say 10 years is being reasonable for friction disc life.

David Floyd

Stock and Cup feel the same to me.

NZ951

Yeah I didnt notice that much difference, though I did install the KEP PP and a light fly too...

Zero10

Hmm, so the cup clutch is just as nice on the street... Now I'm trying to decide if the extra cost is warranted.
How many people have had the inner springs fail in a rather short (say, under 10 years) time?
If the failure rate in this time frame is very low, then I think I will use the stock clutch. As I understand it, this car has the original clutch in it right now, although it's only at about 70,000 miles.

David Floyd

930 disk is another option, which I think is cheaper than the cup disk. Rennlister Stephen Magown uses one and likes it.

Check with Jason at Paragon, he can give you an honest opinion without try to just sell something.

tommo951

That argument has no weight at all.
Lada buld cars as did Trabant but they were both useless I have built several championship winning cars but I don't claim to be a car builder but I recognise better componants than Lada!
Certain Spec clutches are too aggressive for road, end of argument.
On the subject of pressure plates yes they do wear out. The diaphragm gets weaker over a period of time (metal fatigue) Why not look at what the maximun torque you are going to create is multiply it by 125% as I am sure you will occassionally spin the rear wheels and you have to take into account the level of grip and resistance from the tyres and drivetrain. Then go and look for a clutch that will meet your demands.
On the subject of stock clutches when I bought my car it had just had a new stock clutch fitted by the official porsche centre. After 1000 miles I found that if I made an aggressive takeoff from standstill the clutch would slip like a speed skater. At that point my car was stock (250bhp) At the very least you want to look at something that is of sililar clamping force to the cup clutch cover.
As for the pressure plate again the cup spec plate works fine for adventurous road driving and the occassional track day.

Cheers
Tom

Cheers
Tom