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Section 4 of the Farhzeugbrief is interesting in that it has the earliest date of 2-2-77 on it... that must have been provided by the factory, I think.
...
Hi Andrew, glad to see, that you investigate every single part of the paperwork related to 928#1`s interesting history.
Some minor additional remarks:
Last but one chapter of Page/Section 4 of the "Fahrzeugbrief"/title (here picture 1-4) is a statement of an technical expert (as I read it, his last name is "Heitzmann") of the official german authority for technical inspection (like MOT in UK, in German "Technischer Überwachungsverein"=Association for Technical Inspection), that the Porsche Type 928 generally is in accordance with the regulations in these days. This general inspection for the Porsche Type 928 was done on Feb 02 1977 in Weissach. Please note that the technical part of the "Fahrzeugbrief"/title has 33 rows. In Section 4 you can find the sentence that the technical details in row 1-33 in "Fahrzeugbrief"/title of 928#1 is in accordance with the regulations.
Furthermore: Last chapter in Section 4 means "notes of the factory" (here Porsche). You can find a handwritten number 128001 (no clue what it means - could it also be 928001?), the colour "weiß"/ white and a third number 8180021 [your original engine number]).
Related to your picture 1.6-1 and your spreadsheet: on July 04th 1978 your car was deregistered the first time still with first plate S CX 2132 (in fact the authorities pull off the two official stamps on every plate). That means that Porsche factory obviously decided to prepare the car for selling and did not want to use it on german roads any more. No new plate S CX 2133 was issued (like written in your spreadsheet in chronical order)! On Sep 28th 1978 the car was registered on the name of the first private owner (Hans Jürgen Meyer) with a new plate issued in the town of Hannover: H JM 62 (picture 1-6.2).
...On June 6th 1982 Mr. Balsam in Hamburg as the last owner in "your" "Fahrzeugbrief"/title had the car registered on his name (still the same plate in Hamburg/HH) without previous deregistration. This means that Mrs. Karin Rudolf as the previous owner sold it directly to Mr. Balsam. Mr. Balsam had his car deregistered on June 7th 1983 (with passed german roadworthiness test /DMV/MOT until 05/1985).
According to your translation of Jens explanations to Jim Doerr via mail (translated automatically with google from german to english), Mr. Balsam sold the car to Porsche Company Raffay in Hamburg, where Jens bought the car shortly afterwards. I read Jens german mail to Jim different: Jens stated that he bought the car from an estate agent (translated as house broker) in Hamburg and not from Porsche Company Raffay. I believe this estate agent was Mr. Balsam and that Porsche Company Raffay was not between Mr. Balsam and Jens. Jens explained to me recently at the phone, that his name does not appear in the original "Fahrzeugbrief"/title now in your possession, because with the registration on his name (shortly after June 1983) he declared officially with a personal statement that he had lost the original "Fahrzeugbrief"/title - so he was issued with a new "Fahrzeugbrief"/title as a substitute for "your" fahrzeugbrief"/title! In these days this was an often used trick to hide a higher number of previous owners, as (after officially declaring the loss of the original title) a new issued substitute title did not name all the previous owners! Jens already had 928#1 deregistered again on Sept 20th 1983 (green paper) obviously for export (still with passed MOT until 05/1985).
Bernd,
128 0001 is the body number of the car.
In fact, this is the first 928 body of the 1978 model year.
This confirms that this car has the first body number and Euro VIN of the "production" 928's.
Hi Andrew, glad to see, that you investigate every single part of the paperwork related to 928#1`s interesting history.
Some minor additional remarks:
Last but one chapter of Page/Section 4 of the "Fahrzeugbrief"/title (here picture 1-4) is a statement of an technical expert (as I read it, his last name is "Heitzmann") of the official german authority for technical inspection (like MOT in UK, in German "Technischer Überwachungsverein"=Association for Technical Inspection), that the Porsche Type 928 generally is in accordance with the regulations in these days. This general inspection for the Porsche Type 928 was done on Feb 02 1977 in Weissach. Please note that the technical part of the "Fahrzeugbrief"/title has 33 rows. In Section 4 you can find the sentence that the technical details in row 1-33 in "Fahrzeugbrief"/title of 928#1 is in accordance with the regulations.
Furthermore: Last chapter in Section 4 means "notes of the factory" (here Porsche). You can find a handwritten number 128001 (no clue what it means - could it also be 928001?), the colour "weiß"/ white and a third number 8180021 [your original engine number]).
Are you saying that a note like this would not appear on another 928 Fahrzeugbrief? as in this was a one time "inspection of compliance" for for the new model? or is there a regulatory inspection of all VINS? It does lead me to believe that 928#1 was at least a completed construction car on 2-2-77.
Related to your picture 1.6-1 and your spreadsheet: on July 04th 1978 your car was deregistered the first time still with first plate S CX 2132 (in fact the authorities pull off the two official stamps on every plate). That means that Porsche factory obviously decided to prepare the car for selling and did not want to use it on german roads any more. No new plate S CX 2133 was issued (like written in your spreadsheet in chronical order)! On Sep 28th 1978 the car was registered on the name of the first private owner (Hans Jürgen Meyer) with a new plate issued in the town of Hannover: H JM 62 (picture 1-6.2).
...On June 6th 1982 Mr. Balsam in Hamburg as the last owner in "your" "Fahrzeugbrief"/title had the car registered on his name (still the same plate in Hamburg/HH) without previous deregistration. This means that Mrs. Karin Rudolf as the previous owner sold it directly to Mr. Balsam. Mr. Balsam had his car deregistered on June 7th 1983 (with passed german roadworthiness test /DMV/MOT until 05/1985).
According to your translation of Jens explanations to Jim Doerr via mail (translated automatically with google from german to english), Mr. Balsam sold the car to Porsche Company Raffay in Hamburg, where Jens bought the car shortly afterwards. I read Jens german mail to Jim different: Jens stated that he bought the car from an estate agent (translated as house broker) in Hamburg and not from Porsche Company Raffay. I believe this estate agent was Mr. Balsam and that Porsche Company Raffay was not between Mr. Balsam and Jens. Jens explained to me recently at the phone, that his name does not appear in the original "Fahrzeugbrief"/title now in your possession, because with the registration on his name (shortly after June 1983) he declared officially with a personal statement that he had lost the original "Fahrzeugbrief"/title - so he was issued with a new "Fahrzeugbrief"/title as a substitute for "your" fahrzeugbrief"/title! In these days this was an often used trick to hide a higher number of previous owners, as (after officially declaring the loss of the original title) a new issued substitute title did not name all the previous owners! Jens already had 928#1 deregistered again on Sept 20th 1983 (green paper) obviously for export (still with passed MOT until 05/1985).
Best regards,
bernd
How some missed translations can throw you (me) off! Jim and I assumed house broker to mean Porsche dealer. With your explanation there are no more holes in the German ownership.
How some missed translations can throw you (me) off! Jim and I assumed house broker to mean Porsche dealer. With your explanation there are no more holes in the German ownership.
Awesome contributions Bernd!!
Excellent contributions, no doubt!
Since after Wilke the car was exported, was he only required to cancel registration/deregister it? I'm curious to what happened to his new/substitute Fahrzeugbrief/title?
Are you saying that a note like this would not appear on another 928 Fahrzeugbrief? as in this was a one time "inspection of compliance" for for the new model? or is there a regulatory inspection of all VINS? It does lead me to believe that 928#1 was at least a completed construction car on 2-2-77.
I will try to clarify this, Andrew. The Fahrzeugbrief/title in germany today has a different format/size (and it also contains the numbers of all previous owners in Germany). My 928 as an imported car from the Netherlands has already the new title format, where this part/section 4 in question is deleted. I need to find an owner of a 928 with an original old german Fahrzeugbrief/title, to ckeck, if every 928 that was registered the first time in these days, takes reference to this initial inspection of compliance done on 02/02/77 for the Porsche 928 type or not.
And to Jims question, what happened to the new substitute Fahrzeugbrief/title of Jens: normally the valid Fahrzeugbrief/title is handed over to the buyer after payment as only the possession of the Fahrzeugbrief/title declares ownership. Therefore I believe that the substitute was handed over to the buying company from US also (this company could never prove possession of the car in Germany without the title). This works vice versa: here in germany you can not register a car imported from the US without the original american title and this american title is kept by the authorities that deliver the new german Fahrzeugbrief/title.
In the green deregistration paper from Jens you can find a row where it is noted that this deregistration from Sept 20th 1983 is also written with a remark in the Fahrzeugbrief/title, which was the substitute.
Regarding the service at Raffay Porsche, Hamburg. 18-12-___
Unfortunately they left the year off of the date, December 12 19?? I cannot determine the year from the information I have
It cannot be 1977, as another service is noted on 3-6-78 with 35000 kilos.
It cannot be 1983, as car was in the US by December of 1983
If it is 1979, the car would have covered almost 30000 additional kilometers in 22 months. It arrived in the Hamburg area with the sale from Meyer to FA Freimund GMBH on 11-22-79. This could have been a new owner's first (to him) service.
The car was registered in the Hamburg area (including with Jens, not that far away in Norderstedt) up until it left for the US in October 1983. The service could have been performed under Freimund, Rudolf, Balsam, or Wilcke ownership in 1979, 80, 81, or 82. It surprises me that with all of this documentation of MOT and ownership changes there are no references to odometer readings.
Raffay did find the time to put the windshield sticker on, which is shown attached while in Wilcke's ownership
What individual(s) at Porsche used the car regularly from early 1977 to its sale on 9-28-78?
Who are Meyer, Freimund(?), Rudolf, and Balsam? What might they have or know? I'm already searching for them.
Difficult, I also read "Fa. (Firma/Company) Freimund GmbH" but could also be "Fa. Freund (=friend) GmbH" because in german writing some put this mark over an "u". Meyer is the most common name in Germany, I could not find him in Burgwedel through the internet (but I do not have facebook etc.).
Hi Andrew, glad to see, that you investigate every single part of the paperwork related to 928#1`s interesting history.
Some minor additional remarks:
Last but one chapter of Page/Section 4 of the "Fahrzeugbrief"/title (here picture 1-4) is a statement of an technical expert (as I read it, his last name is "Heitzmann") of the official german authority for technical inspection (like MOT in UK, in German "Technischer Überwachungsverein"=Association for Technical Inspection), that the Porsche Type 928 generally is in accordance with the regulations in these days. This general inspection for the Porsche Type 928 was done on Feb 02 1977 in Weissach. Please note that the technical part of the "Fahrzeugbrief"/title has 33 rows. In Section 4 you can find the sentence that the technical details in row 1-33 in "Fahrzeugbrief"/title of 928#1 is in accordance with the regulations.
Furthermore: Last chapter in Section 4 means "notes of the factory" (here Porsche). You can find a handwritten number 128001 (no clue what it means - could it also be 928001?), the colour "weiß"/ white and a third number 8180021 [your original engine number]).
Related to your picture 1.6-1 and your spreadsheet: on July 04th 1978 your car was deregistered the first time still with first plate S CX 2132 (in fact the authorities pull off the two official stamps on every plate). That means that Porsche factory obviously decided to prepare the car for selling and did not want to use it on german roads any more. No new plate S CX 2133 was issued (like written in your spreadsheet in chronical order)! On Sep 28th 1978 the car was registered on the name of the first private owner (Hans Jürgen Meyer) with a new plate issued in the town of Hannover: H JM 62 (picture 1-6.2).
...On June 6th 1982 Mr. Balsam in Hamburg as the last owner in "your" "Fahrzeugbrief"/title had the car registered on his name (still the same plate in Hamburg/HH) without previous deregistration. This means that Mrs. Karin Rudolf as the previous owner sold it directly to Mr. Balsam. Mr. Balsam had his car deregistered on June 7th 1983 (with passed german roadworthiness test /DMV/MOT until 05/1985).
According to your translation of Jens explanations to Jim Doerr via mail (translated automatically with google from german to english), Mr. Balsam sold the car to Porsche Company Raffay in Hamburg, where Jens bought the car shortly afterwards. I read Jens german mail to Jim different: Jens stated that he bought the car from an estate agent (translated as house broker) in Hamburg and not from Porsche Company Raffay. I believe this estate agent was Mr. Balsam and that Porsche Company Raffay was not between Mr. Balsam and Jens. Jens explained to me recently at the phone, that his name does not appear in the original "Fahrzeugbrief"/title now in your possession, because with the registration on his name (shortly after June 1983) he declared officially with a personal statement that he had lost the original "Fahrzeugbrief"/title - so he was issued with a new "Fahrzeugbrief"/title as a substitute for "your" fahrzeugbrief"/title! In these days this was an often used trick to hide a higher number of previous owners, as (after officially declaring the loss of the original title) a new issued substitute title did not name all the previous owners! Jens already had 928#1 deregistered again on Sept 20th 1983 (green paper) obviously for export (still with passed MOT until 05/1985).
Since after Wilke the car was exported, was he only required to cancel registration/deregister it? I'm curious to what happened to his new/substitute Fahrzeugbrief/title?
I believe that Bernd told me in one of our conversations that typically the Fahrzeugbrief was retained/ confiscated by officials as part of the export process. This makes the original Fahrzeugbrief that we just got just that much more unlikely to still be in existence all these years later. If Jens didn't "lose" it, then provide a replacement for export, the original would likely have been gone forever! Maybe Bernd will elaborate.
Hi, Andrew. I`m sure that only Jens` trick with the substitute title has preserved your original. The substitute disappeared somewhere after the deregistration from Sept 1983 during the import/export process - that fate was imminent for "your" original also, when it had been used during this import/export process. Another lucky 928#1-story that your Fahrzeugbrief/title is still existing.
As I said in #502 normally the german title is handed over to the new owner as only the possession of the title proves possession of the car. If a new title was issued (for example if there is no space for another owner [and there was only one spare part left in your title after Mr. Balsam!]) normally the old title was retained by the authorities. With more and more old cars on german roads the owners wanted to keep the history of their cars and the original documents, so the authorities started during the early 1990`s to hand out the old title with a stamp "invalid". Before this solution a title that was invalid was marked in a way that the authorities cut away an edge of the title with scissors although they actually nearly never handed out an invalid one - I have seen this only once when a car was of exceptional cultural importance.
Officially your Fahrzeugbrief/title could still be valid in Germany.
Hi, Andrew. I`m sure that only Jens` trick with the substitute title has preserved your original. The substitute disappeared somewhere after the deregistration from Sept 1983 during the import/export process - that fate was imminent for "your" original also, when it had been used during this import/export process. Another lucky 928#1-story that your Fahrzeugbrief/title is still existing.
As I said in #502 normally the german title is handed over to the new owner as only the possession of the title proves possession of the car. If a new title was issued (for example if there is no space for another owner and there was only one spare part left in your title after Mr. Balsam!) normally the old title was retained by the authorities. With more and more old cars on german roads the owners wanted to keep the history of their cars and the original documents, so the authorities started during the early 1990`s to hand out the old title with a stamp "invalid". Before this solution a title that was invalid was marked in a way that the authorities cut away an edge of the title with scissors although they actually nearly never handed out an invalid one - I have seen this only once when a car was of exceptional cultural importance.
Officially your Fahrzeugbrief/title could still be valid in Germany.
bernd
Ha! what are the chances? ...this car is a fighter.
02-20-2020 | 03:28 PM
