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^^^ Ironically I'm always skeptical of pre-digital odometer 928 mileage due to that little plastic wheel that's prone to breaking.
The one and only good thing I can say about emission testing in my area is that the mileage is recorded each time and reported. When I did an Autocheck, it was nice seeing it progress evenly over decades.
I see nothing wrong with his math.
You paid a lot money for a high mileage car. You then had to invest $16,000 into it because it's a high mileage car. Resale is going to be very low because not many people would even consider buying a car with 155,000 miles on it.
When I was shopping for a 928, resources such as CL, eBay, forum marketplaces etc. gave me a never ending amount of nice 928s to choose from. Never felt I had to settle for anything.
In the end, I bought my 928 5 years ago with mileage in the low 40s and looking damn near new inside and out and 99% of all maintenance up to date. I enjoy the heck out of it every summer and I've put less than $1K into it.
For what I paid for it, it's easily tripled in value.
Well it's hard to go back in time but, in 2010 shopping locally in California, there were not any acceptable 928 S4s for sale less than $15K generally, unless needing huge amounts of deferred maintenance. In the local market at that time, I did not pay a lot. My car was appraised for $15,200 after I bought it, and that appraisal had to account for mileage (of course). My car didn't need any deferred maintenance, what I've spent is purely on upkeep maintenance. And I can show you posts on this very forum from back then, where various Rennlisters congratulated me on my purchase and the supposed wisdom of paying a premium for a car in very good condition. https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...with-pics.html
As far as not buying a car with high miles, my feeling at that time was that the condition is more important than the miles. A car that needs a paint job and tons of maintenance, who cares if it has 50K miles? It's junk either way.
In the end, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
My Pantera, cost 10K in 1974, an average Pantera goes for 100K. DeTomaso only built a little less than 7,000 Panteras. The Mangusta sells for the high 300's to low 400's.
I never bought the Polecat or the 928 cause I thought I'd make a killing when I sold. I bought them because I WANTED ONE.
In the end, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
My Pantera, cost 10K in 1974, an average Pantera goes for 100K. DeTomaso only built a little less than 7,000 Panteras. The Mangusta sells for the high 300's to low 400's.
I never bought the Polecat or the 928 cause I thought I'd make a killing when I sold. I bought them because I WANTED ONE.
Absolutely; I have no regrets, and I am happy to have had my 6 years with the S4 I dreamed of when I was 17. It has been a great run. What I am disputing is this nonsense about the general increase in value of 928s. This is absolutely not true of the typical 928 that people own! It is probably true of 928s that have "collector car" status due to low miles. But other than those few rare beasts, the typical 928 is depreciating steadily like any other car over time, no matter whether it is in mint condition or whatnot.
In the end, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
I've always hated and disagreed with that statement since it's only half the equation. Something is only worth what someone is willing to sell it for too.
So in the end, the value of an item is what it sold for. That is why auction houses offer reserves.
Valuations in every market are based on confirmed sales, not offers and speculation. That is unless something is so rare it has no comps, like the Ferrari GTO Stirling Moss raced.
Originally Posted by safulop
What I am disputing is this nonsense about the general increase in value of 928s. This is absolutely not true of the typical 928 that people own!
Maybe we need to define what you feel is the "typical" 928.
All five of my cars are worth more than they were 3-5 years ago. Yes, I've turned down a couple offers to back up this claim.
As for the rest of the market, some of us do keep track of such things. Here is one of my many data points.
It's a nice data table; it generally shows that a 1988 S4 auto with 150K miles (which I would suggest is a typical 928 that people own) would not fetch $14K in today's market, which it definitely did in 2010. That did not happen because I was stupid. Did you read the thread I linked to? I can show you another thread on the same topic if you like. In both threads you can read all the Rennlisters weighing in about how much of a bargain I got for just $14K. That was then, this is now. Or maybe we were all stupid together?
Some of my Porsches are worth more today than when I bought them. Both of my 911's have easily doubled in value. My 928 was an anomaly in how I bought it, so that doesn't really count. The 944 I bought cheap, and it's still cheap. My Cayenne S, bought certified pre-owned for about $20K under sticker, still managed to tank to about 1/4 of what I paid for it. Love them all, though!
The thing that impresses me most, in comparing the current thread to the ones from 2010 when I bought my car, is the complete change of attitude toward high-milers. In those threads more than a couple people said things like "there's such a thing as too few miles" and "928s hit their stride after 100,000 miles." Now in this thread, one poster said that very few people would buy a car with 150K miles. I think that what's happening now is, the values of high-milers are bottoming out. The 928 is not as much of a competitive daily driver as it used to be, so the high-miler DDs are not holding their value because there are other performance cars coming up to take their place in the sub-$20K price point.
When I was buying there was essentially zero performance cars that could compete with a 928 and could be purchased in excellent condition for less than $20,000. In those days, the 928 was actually the best value among performance cars period, and that is no longer the case.
I would say not all high milers are created equal. Mine for example has the most detailed records one will ever see, including every single tank of gas since new, speeding tickets, dates in and out of storage, etc.
So at some point I would think miles can become less of a factor when a car has so many other rare factors.
My point is every car is different and many factors will set the price, including market timing.
I payed 14k CDN for mine in 2013 and it's now appraised at 40k CDN. But I will never know what it will sell for as I plan on being buried in it.
87 5spd, sport seats, LSD - Condition 2
Last edited by Adamant1971; 01-03-2017 at 10:39 PM.
I would say not all high milers are created equal. Mine for example has the most detailed records one will ever see, including every single tank of gas since new, speeding tickets, dates in and out of storage, etc.
So at some point I would think miles can become less of a factor when a car has so many other rare factors.
My point is every car is different and many factors will set the price, including market timing.
I payed 14k CDN for mine in 2013 and it's now appraised at 40k CDN. But I will never know what it will sell for as I plan on being buried in it.
87 5spd, sport seats, LSD - Condition 2
Well I would suggest getting buried in it. You can dream on but what the evidence shows is this. In this thread we got this comment:
"You paid a lot money for a high mileage car. You then had to invest $16,000 into it because it's a high mileage car. Resale is going to be very low because not many people would even consider buying a car with 155,000 miles on it."
In a thread from 2010 we got this comment:
"You mention mileage but honestly unless you're planning to put it in a bubble I think there's such a thing as too FEW miles as well as too many. These cars love to be driven and if they sit for long periods of time all kinds of things tend to start going wrong and can be a major headache when they all present at once."
So, the general attitude toward mileage has completely changed in the past 6 years. In 2010, it was a *good* thing to have over 100K miles. Today it is a *bad* thing. It's as simple as that.
Attitudes have not changed. As mileage goes up, value goes down...it's a fact of life.
An 8 out of 10 condition car with 20K miles will be worth more than an 8 out of 10 condition car with 120K miles.
In 2010, there were many S4s in my area with 60K to 80K miles for $15K to $18K and many were at high end dealerships. I wish I picked a few up and stashed them away. Those days are GONE. The overall values of nice 928s have gone up and they will continue to go up.
The "low mileage cars are horrible" crowd; every car and motorcycle forum has them. Ask to see pictures of their odometer. How about this, have you ever heard of anyone cracking open their odometer and ADVANCING the mileage to increase the value of their car? Has anyone jumped for joy when their car hit 100,000 miles because it's now worth $10K more?
And yes, common sense says a 20K mile car that's been wrecked or left rotting in a field won't have much value and that's not what's being discussed here.
Lastly, did you post a thread asking opinions on your car BEFORE you bought it?
When I was buying in 2010, there were certainly not any 60-80K mile S4s for sale in California for less than $20,000, unless needed tons of deferred maintenance. This could be a result of the well-known "California premium" on performance cars. I did get plenty of advice on this forum before buying, and that advice focused on the notion of a car being "well-sorted," meaning very little deferred maintenance, no matter the mileage.
Obviously mileage matters; however it was not a dealbreaker. At that time, on balance, a 130K mile car that seemed well-sorted in excellent condition was preferable to an 80K mile car in less than very good condition with unknown service history etc.
Cars of the second type, in 2010 in California, generally cost more than cars of the former type. Because mileage was important of course. But now it seems like the 928 has left the realm of the drivers and is moving to the realm of the collectors. So mileage is more than important, it is *everything* now.
Absolutely no one gave me buying advice that focused on mileage, or that suggested high-milers should go for a song. It was all about condition and service records.
I guess I am not sure what we are arguing about. You're saying I should have paid only $10K for my car instead of $14K ? Or what? The evidence at the time showed that was not true at all. I actually bought two 928 S4s in 2010 after much searching, market surveys and Rennlist consultation. I did my homework. No matter how you slice it, the value of my specific 928 has not increased one iota in the past 6 years. In fact it has likely gone down. So this belies the idea that 928 values are increasing overall. It's really as simple as that. Not all 928s are going up in value. High-milers are not going up in value. I can live with this, it isn't making me suicidal or anything, but I would just like it to be recognized as a fact.
I think the difference in 2010 is that you were getting opinions from other 928 owners about milage/value. I believe what we saw in 2016 is that the non-928 car collectors started sniffing around to see what all the fuss was about. And those people value low mileage/rare optioned cars. They have no knowledge yet about 928s hitting their stride at 100k miles. They are collectors and are looking for a car that will appreciate in value the quickest and those cars are always low milers or rare examples. It's these cars that 6 years ago may have fetched in the mid 20's but now are getting mid 30's to low 40's. The higher mileage 928s will appreciate if the lower mileage ones continue to sell for strong money. I don't know this but I suspect that high mileage 911s haven't appreciated at nearly the rate of low milers.
So I'm curious, now that you're out of the 928 what's your next automotive adventure going to be? Alfa GTV-6? Or something newer like a ten year old Cayman?
01-02-2017, 06:52 PM
