blau928

Interesting...

The lot that believe in no smog control may want to seriously consider moving to Beijing from California. I highly encourage it!

Please leave the clean air here for the rest of us!

As an exercise it would be interesting for the high revving 928 car owners to data log their average RPM and see where the engine spends most of its life.

1,500-2,500 would surely occupy a significant amount of time. Except for full on race cars, which are smog exempt anyway.......

GT6ixer

Just curious, does that formula offshore boat have smog control? Honestly, I don't know, just wondering if boats have to have emissions tested?

Rob Edwards

Huh?

Some stock, some not. No smoke. Prolly 'cuz they're tuned.

Imo000

The majority of the pollution in southwestern Ontario comes from you Fer's south of our border. Time to pack up USA and move to China!

mark kibort

confused really! get behind one of the newer supercars of the decade and watch the pollution out of the pipes. its no surprise. the cat and other things do LITTLE under WOT conditions. mixtures go to 12.5:1, and the cat is relatively ineffective. doesnt take a brain surgon to understand that a 600hp car at WOT, puts out 100s of times more polution than a volkswagon beattle in cruise mode.
if you dont get my main point... bottom line, it's when you floor a car, emissions go through the roof!

So, if we really care about pollution, why do we have 600hp street cars? if we really care about hyway safety, why can you buy a new car that can go 200mph when the speed limit iis 65 or 70mph?

if you can answer the above, you understand my point

(edit) .... well, not a "walll of smoke" but you see and smell something most of the time.... that "something" is a lot of pollution.

blau928

No cats on the boat, but it runs healthy and yes it has EFI and I have put a plm in it.

The new boat motors are even cleaner. I would happily put a set of cats on my boat if it were required.

If you look at the burn data from an internal combustion engine and log it you will soon realize that the more complete the combustion the more power the engine makes and the less harmful emissions are emitted to the atmosphere.

It is particularly interesting when I go to car shows/coffee and have people with awfully polluting engines that can't even be stood next to tell me that their lovely pride and joy is tuned properly and making sooooo much power. What a load of bs and wasteful crap!

If you can make the same or more power with less pollution and use less fuel, what's the downside.

I would be in favor of a German TUV or Belgian Control Technique inspection here in CA. It would keep all the junk piles on the road off. Those with no brakes, bald tires, polluting engines, non working turn signals, bad shocks etc. etc..

And yes, I've lived in both BE and DE so I know what that's like.

Point being, if you maintain the vehicle properly it will pass the CA smog tests without any problems. I'm happy to breathe clean air! (I've been to Beijing and will happily take a smog check instead)

blau928

The Canadians could deport you to south of the border and you could avoid the complaint and be with polluting F'ers like you who remove their cats etc.... No need for you to complain about the same crap you're doing to others as they do the same to you. Be an example and grow a pair, put the cats back on your car.

In California we obviously can't send our pollution to Ontario. In any case the world manufacturing is already in China so no need for me to move there. I have the choice to live anywhere and I choose CA, and keep the smog checks.

blau928

This is where the average RPM comes into play. In any case you will never be at wot all day in any supercar on any road anywhere in the world, especially CA.

Most cars are cruising around at 70-80 mom at 1500-2500 RPM.....

The once in awhile that you get on it a bit for 5 seconds is minimal compared to the length of time you spend at average RPM.

You don't have to believe me, just log the data in an honest way and see for yourself.

Even on the autobahn where you can go for many many miles you will NOT be at WOT all the time........ It's impossible due to traffic, terrain and other driving conditions. Not to even mention driver skills......

SeanR

Nope, and neither do all those cargo ships sitting out in the bay.

I'm not against smog controls but that **** was under control decades ago. Why they feel they need to keep passing more regulations and tightening up existing ones is beyond me. Oh wait, it's not. They are trying to justify their jobs and continued existence. If they were shut down today and the regulations on the books were kept as is, the air would be just as clean 50 years from now.

Imo000

Screw that!!! The $hit coming across the great lakes is industry based anyways.

mark kibort

Oh i believe you ! But, these guys use the HP often, even if it not "track" like, its still a lot of gas being burned (excess gas) these cars often get only 10mpg vs normal cars at 25 to 30mpg. that alone is proof.
im talking about when these cars are being driven hard, climbing the hill above my house is a favoite for most local performance car members... they are on it for much more of the time than on city streets. those are the same guys that go light to like WOT for at least a little bit. lots of power being used
AND, on the freeways, remember, it takes 8 times the power (and thus 8 times the pollution ) when you double your speed, with NO acceleration .

actually , one of the reasons that the boat runs cleaner is that the exhaust does run with some water pumped into it as well as it being filtered through the water when idling around.
as far as complete burn? thats not the best power formula. most power is made at near 12:1 mixtures, while Stoich is 14.7:1. better fuel economy is found lean of stoich, like 17:1 ish, but the NOX goes through the roof, so thats bad in one area. one could argue that if you get better gas mileage you burn less gas and have less pollution, but the NOX is so hight that it doesnt offset the negative.
yes, some of the stinkiest cars you will find are at the track. you will see this weekend.. i almost pass out on grid, but they do make more power than most all cars you will ever see on the street, and with less dispacment. cup cars make near 450 to 500rwhp now! out of 3.8 to 4L engines!!

dr bob

I spend a fairly significant portion of my little consulting gig time working on combustion management in large gas turbines in power plants. Pollution is a trade-off, same as it is in cars on the road. As much as we like to point to large stationary sources as the root of our problems, the poster children for that theory are aging coal burning facilities that are being systematically replaced with much cleaner natural gas fired units. SeanR's reference to smoke-spewing ships is valid, and regulation of those and of jet aircraft is is getting tighter as those are cycled out of service. Those and the power plants are generally subject to the rules and standards that were in effect when they were put in service, the same methods used to judge cars in California. The cars need to pass with the same limits that were in effect when they were manufactured. Coal-fired (actually all) power plants are subject to periodic re-licensing, so get additional limits on NOx and particulate emissions subject to available technologies. Disregarding the political costs of doing such, it's easily possible to put a larger-capacity, cleaner gas-fired power plant in the parking lot of a coal plant for less than it costs to retrofit stack scrubbers and low-NOx burners to a coal unit. Plus no mountains of ash to find homes for.

So the question for Cali drivers is whether one needs to remove the cats or the air pump to keep the fumes within the original limits in force when the car was manufactured. Federal law prohibits any modification of the cars' emission control elements, and one can easily argue that pistons and compression ratios are key to what comes out of the tailpipes.

So what's the question? Should there be state "exemptions" for cars that are modified in violation of federal standards? Question doesn't really come up, because those cars can't legally be driven the first mile on a public road, per federal guidelines. It's up to the individual states to enforce the federal standards. That's really all the various states, including California, choose to or are required to do based on local situations of population and vehicle densities.

Consider that downwind states have successfully sued upwind states for the quality of air blowing their way. I work with utilities on both ends of those situations. It isn't all stack emissions, but those seem to be the easiest to regulate, politically.

Anybody had a bite of the air east of Houston and the other gulf refinery areas?

blau928

Even those hill run guys by your house spend most of the running time around 1500-2500. So it still will come out that the most pollution emitted by the engine will be in that range over time.

I totally understand the lean and rich lambda, and I don't recall the need for 12:1 afr across the entire powerband. If you do that then you're also wasting fuel as it should be a function of load not just RPM across the range.... So you can do more work over time with less fuel.

Anyway, My comments were general in that most of the stinky street cars are set too rich and waste fuel for no reason. And most of these clowns have never heard of a PLM (professional lambda meter) nor can they use them.

Track cars are exempt so not worth mentioning.

The boat does have water in the exhaust sleeve, but not in the inside of the pipe. I run a double wall stainless dry inner pipe header and transom connection. When the boat is off plane, then the exhaust empties under the water line. Some older boats use water on the inside of the pipe to cool the exhaust and control emissions into the atmosphere. My setup runs cleaner with the EFI and the under the waterline at off plane is mostly for sound as its the same as having open headers.....

mark kibort

good points. but yes for power, most all race or high performance street engines make most power from low to high RPM at near 12.5 fuel air ratios. some get into the 13s, but that's still way lower than complete combustion.
I only mention track cars, as thats how most of the street tuner guys want their cars to run. however, they do dump a lot of fuel needlessly at idle and part throttle. which often times, the race cars cant help as they are spending 50% of their time at WOT, while the ricer guys are less than 1% (and average speeds over a year of near 30mph)
very stinky!

blau928

This is exactly my point....