Electric Supercharger/Super Bilge Blower???
08-02-2005, 07:18 PM
#121
"I don't think that we have ruled out improper installation yet. And this keeps the debate open for another 12 months....."
To the contrary, i think it's a given that the units were definitely improperly installed wrt the E-ram guidelines.
They should've been in paralell, they weren't, therefore ALL Ketchmi's dyno test proves is that even installed improperly the E-ram is still good for a 3hp gain.
Installed properly, one could reasonably expect that to be doubled or more.
To the contrary, i think it's a given that the units were definitely improperly installed wrt the E-ram guidelines.
They should've been in paralell, they weren't, therefore ALL Ketchmi's dyno test proves is that even installed improperly the E-ram is still good for a 3hp gain.
Installed properly, one could reasonably expect that to be doubled or more.
08-02-2005, 07:37 PM
#122
Drifting
But no qualifying statements about current draw? Both of these fans were hooked up to a single 40 amp fuse and did not blow it. A fuse is not a limiting factor, it's an on/off switch. If the current exceeds 40 amps, it blows, it doesn't just slow the fans down to a 40 amp draw. Chalk that one up to improper install.......
Keep going guys, this is fun!
Keep going guys, this is fun!
08-02-2005, 07:40 PM
#123
Drifting
BTW, they were installed on an 85' twin dizzy Euro. Maybe that matters? LOL!
It only dyno'd at 230 rwhp uncorrected at 4400' elevation. There must be a reason or two there......
It only dyno'd at 230 rwhp uncorrected at 4400' elevation. There must be a reason or two there......
08-02-2005, 08:12 PM
#124
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
WOW I'm surprised this thread continues to live on.
If the electric supercharger is the next step in automotive performance, why aren't the auto manufactures using it?
Don't see it in Pro-Stock/Super Stock or tuner competition. Heck don't even see it on the street as someone trying to show it off.
If the electric supercharger is the next step in automotive performance, why aren't the auto manufactures using it?
Don't see it in Pro-Stock/Super Stock or tuner competition. Heck don't even see it on the street as someone trying to show it off.
08-02-2005, 08:14 PM
#125
Rennlist Member
Dave, let me state a few facts.
see my inserts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Also, read some of the semantic argument regarding "turbo, supercharger, turbine, etc" a belt driven supercharger is a supercharger. an electric supercharger is a supercharger. A turbo is an exhaust driven supercharger, a turbine is a exhause driven set of impelllers that drive a set of axial flow compressor stages.
Next, DAVE, the part about 10hp to create 10hp ......... common misconception. the 1 or 10hp used to drive a turbine, compressor, turbo, etc, creates pressure (increase in air density) so that the increased air mass can be matched with more fuel and that is what creates the increase HP. what counts here is the amount of pressure created at the air flow required. the eRAM makes a lot of air flow (ie 1000cfm or so) but is very poor at creating pressure as the case with most axial flow compressors, although very good at the job of a small amount of pressure with a moderate amount of air flow. (ie less than 500cfm for cars under 4.7 liter at 6000rpm WOT)
Mark Kibort
see my inserts>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
There is no "deep hostility", just stating facts. I'm sure every 5" exhaust on every ricer gives them 300 more horsepower too.
Clue #1 These fans come with wire too small to safely carry 40 amps each.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrong. the eRAMs now run current of more than 55amps. proven by a picture attacted. 12 guage can run 50amps safely, but is not recommended for continuous operation. there is a voltage drop accross the wiring, but it only reduces the applied voltage to the eRAMS. using very short length wire or using 10guage, improves rpms from 26,000rpm to about 26700rpm.
Clue #2 These fans were fused at 40 amps TOTAL! and did not blow the fuse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrong again. The eRAMs actually use a 30amp fuse for initial set up as most customers install the eRAM with a hand switch that is sometimes left on too long (exceeding design duty cycle) Now, if you understand how fuses blow, they dont blow upon their current rating, they blow over time. there is a time vs current chart available for most fuse manufacturers.
Clue #3 The customer set up a boost gauge and could almost swear that he may have once seen it go positive.......but not by much, not even close to 1#.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we measured 100s of times, the vaccum in the air box under WOT at 100mph and rpms from 3000rpm to 6000rpm. .5"Hg vacuum measured. with eRAM, .5psi measured. more very sensitive pressure guages to be used to confirm effectiveness on other cars and HPs.
Make as many excuses as you would like, my eyes don't decieve me often and I hate to see people get taken in by these claims. It's your decision, you asked for any experience then you argue with it and find excuse after excuse. Spend your money, post your results. I believe I'll still be laughing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>At devek days, we had shown thd 7hp gains 3 different pulls vs baseline and then a rebaseline run. it was very obvious the gains were due to the eRAM set up. on the 911s, (4 of them) a solid 10hp gain at max HP from 200 to 210 hp at the rear wheels) The dual eRAM is worth another 3-4hp on top of the 10hp gains on a 200hp rear wheel hp car.
Clue #1 These fans come with wire too small to safely carry 40 amps each.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrong. the eRAMs now run current of more than 55amps. proven by a picture attacted. 12 guage can run 50amps safely, but is not recommended for continuous operation. there is a voltage drop accross the wiring, but it only reduces the applied voltage to the eRAMS. using very short length wire or using 10guage, improves rpms from 26,000rpm to about 26700rpm.
Clue #2 These fans were fused at 40 amps TOTAL! and did not blow the fuse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wrong again. The eRAMs actually use a 30amp fuse for initial set up as most customers install the eRAM with a hand switch that is sometimes left on too long (exceeding design duty cycle) Now, if you understand how fuses blow, they dont blow upon their current rating, they blow over time. there is a time vs current chart available for most fuse manufacturers.
Clue #3 The customer set up a boost gauge and could almost swear that he may have once seen it go positive.......but not by much, not even close to 1#.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we measured 100s of times, the vaccum in the air box under WOT at 100mph and rpms from 3000rpm to 6000rpm. .5"Hg vacuum measured. with eRAM, .5psi measured. more very sensitive pressure guages to be used to confirm effectiveness on other cars and HPs.
Make as many excuses as you would like, my eyes don't decieve me often and I hate to see people get taken in by these claims. It's your decision, you asked for any experience then you argue with it and find excuse after excuse. Spend your money, post your results. I believe I'll still be laughing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>At devek days, we had shown thd 7hp gains 3 different pulls vs baseline and then a rebaseline run. it was very obvious the gains were due to the eRAM set up. on the 911s, (4 of them) a solid 10hp gain at max HP from 200 to 210 hp at the rear wheels) The dual eRAM is worth another 3-4hp on top of the 10hp gains on a 200hp rear wheel hp car.
Next, DAVE, the part about 10hp to create 10hp ......... common misconception. the 1 or 10hp used to drive a turbine, compressor, turbo, etc, creates pressure (increase in air density) so that the increased air mass can be matched with more fuel and that is what creates the increase HP. what counts here is the amount of pressure created at the air flow required. the eRAM makes a lot of air flow (ie 1000cfm or so) but is very poor at creating pressure as the case with most axial flow compressors, although very good at the job of a small amount of pressure with a moderate amount of air flow. (ie less than 500cfm for cars under 4.7 liter at 6000rpm WOT)
Mark Kibort
08-02-2005, 08:24 PM
#126
Rennlist Member
One other key point. the eRAM creates the equivilant pressure of a 200mph ram effect. the CFM is double of what the cars engine will require . Providing the ecu and air metering equipment are able to increase fuel flow for the increase air flow, there will be proportional gains. Like any bolt on device, it works on some cars and doesnt on others . ive seen $250 cool air tubes with cone filters where you loose 1hp. Ive seen the eRAM vs the tubes gain 10hp. There are a lot of factors, but as a bolt on device, and $300 for the mod, its right there value-wise with all the things ive done(and ive done them all except turbo or belt driven superchargers.)
Actually, the eRAM was close to the cheapest HP we bolted on to the 242 rear wheel hp 4.7 liter 928, and certainly the best on the 911.
if you are not seeing 50amp draws and some more reasonable gains, something is not working properly in the system, or there is an installation issue. I did an install with Scots 4.5 liter and he had MAJOR electrical issues with a small battery that he had killed and a weak alternator. at less than 11 volts, the eRAM still provided 10ftlbs of torque gains at peak, but no gains at max hp due to the 30% loss in operating RPM of the eRAM due to the loss of voltage in the system.
It works for all the right reasons, but it has its limitations. My research has shown that 250 rear wheel hp is the upper limit range (ie 300flywheel hp )
MK
Actually, the eRAM was close to the cheapest HP we bolted on to the 242 rear wheel hp 4.7 liter 928, and certainly the best on the 911.
if you are not seeing 50amp draws and some more reasonable gains, something is not working properly in the system, or there is an installation issue. I did an install with Scots 4.5 liter and he had MAJOR electrical issues with a small battery that he had killed and a weak alternator. at less than 11 volts, the eRAM still provided 10ftlbs of torque gains at peak, but no gains at max hp due to the 30% loss in operating RPM of the eRAM due to the loss of voltage in the system.
It works for all the right reasons, but it has its limitations. My research has shown that 250 rear wheel hp is the upper limit range (ie 300flywheel hp )
MK
08-02-2005, 08:30 PM
#127
Rennlist Member
Really??? well , you better do some homework because thats just what any turbo or belt driven (or electrically driven) supercharger will do.
10hp can creat 50-100hp. on dragsters, 1000hp creates 5000hp.
generally, for every psi at 500cfm you need about 2HP mechanically . you can clearly see that at 1 bar boost, you would neeed about 25-30hp to create this kind of pressure gain and hp gains would be in the 100-200hp range depending on a ton of factors. electric motors have one disadvantage, they have inefficiencies , but still can run at 75% efficiency. the turbo itself has efficiency, at 75% efficiency, that leaves most superchargers at 50-75% efficient. all this means is that you need to pump more electricity to the electic motor. if it is a low duty cycle as it is in the case of the eRAM, this is easy to do.
duty cycle is key to its survival. we have used them since 97 without failures. at laguna, you are only full throttle for 50 seconds on a 1:41 second lap.
Mk
10hp can creat 50-100hp. on dragsters, 1000hp creates 5000hp.
generally, for every psi at 500cfm you need about 2HP mechanically . you can clearly see that at 1 bar boost, you would neeed about 25-30hp to create this kind of pressure gain and hp gains would be in the 100-200hp range depending on a ton of factors. electric motors have one disadvantage, they have inefficiencies , but still can run at 75% efficiency. the turbo itself has efficiency, at 75% efficiency, that leaves most superchargers at 50-75% efficient. all this means is that you need to pump more electricity to the electic motor. if it is a low duty cycle as it is in the case of the eRAM, this is easy to do.
duty cycle is key to its survival. we have used them since 97 without failures. at laguna, you are only full throttle for 50 seconds on a 1:41 second lap.
Mk
Originally Posted by Ketchmi
No, I like Mark K.
I will not waste my time with fly by night equipment or smoke and mirrors. I think it's nothing more than a big joke. (and I am entitled to think that......)
Power is neither created or lost, just transferred from one form to another. You cannot take 10 horsepower worth of electrical power and create 10 more horsepower from an internal combustion engine. There are losses incurred in the conversion process. Even if, how much electrical energy would it take to provide 10 additional horses? Considerably more than those fans provide.
I will not waste my time with fly by night equipment or smoke and mirrors. I think it's nothing more than a big joke. (and I am entitled to think that......)
Power is neither created or lost, just transferred from one form to another. You cannot take 10 horsepower worth of electrical power and create 10 more horsepower from an internal combustion engine. There are losses incurred in the conversion process. Even if, how much electrical energy would it take to provide 10 additional horses? Considerably more than those fans provide.
08-02-2005, 08:39 PM
#128
Rennlist Member
Wow, this thread just took off! anyway, to answer another question, No, the holbert car saw what Dave was referring too, 2-3hp gains. but keep in mind , that is on a 335hp rear wheel hp machine. air flow and pressure curve must have been matched, as the gains were very small. going to do more tesing to see whats happening to intake air pressure.
However, on the lower HP cars, they seem to work pretty well. all you need is a battery in decent shape. 50-100amps is not an issue.
MK
However, on the lower HP cars, they seem to work pretty well. all you need is a battery in decent shape. 50-100amps is not an issue.
MK
Originally Posted by SharkSkin
Mark K has stated a difference from -0.5psi in the air cleaner stock to +0.5psi with the e-ram. He has also stated that a 5 liter engine is pretty much pushing the outer envelope of what the devices are capable of. I think he saw 10-15HP gain, but I'm not sure whether that was with stock exhaust or not.
Seems the e-ram does work, and offers a small but measurable improvement. Is it worth it? That's a matter of personal preference. In my opinion, no. But, to each his own...
Seems the e-ram does work, and offers a small but measurable improvement. Is it worth it? That's a matter of personal preference. In my opinion, no. But, to each his own...
08-02-2005, 08:48 PM
#129
Drifting
The master speaks!
Hey Mark, how's it hangin'?
I did not want to get too involved in the math and formula's as I really have a lot of stuff to do instead of this. I think it's been kinda' fun though.
So you were seeing approx. a 50 amp draw with two of them? (Hmmm, not 80 Sniper....) 230rwhp uncorrected for altitude is more than 250 rwhp at sea level (approx 13/14% loss), that may be why I saw basically nothing. Then again, I never said the install was correct either. If I posted a pic of the install, people would be laughing for days. The air filter itself is pure comedy. It did function but man it's bad.
I don't tend to play too much with lower horsepower vehicles, in fact, most 928's wouldn't fall under the 250rwhp criteria. They may be functional on smaller engines but that was not the origional question.
So Mark, what do you think of the Thomas Knight electric supercharger? Read the story in the turbo magazine on his website, it has potential but is still way to in-efficient to be considered worthwhile. The idea of maximum boost at low rpm has it's plus's and minus's, major detonation being one of major minus's.
Mark, what's say you give Sniper a good deal on a couple. I want to know the outcome. I'm sure that if it's good, he'll be telling everyone. Write it off to advertising? I don't think I'd pull an Andy Keel and fly out to help him install them though, kinda' cost in-effective.
(12 gauge wire will handle 50 amps? I guess I'll rewire all my fan systems that draw 20 amps with 12 gauge wire to save money......stupid me, I've been using 10 gauge!)
Hey Mark, how's it hangin'?
I did not want to get too involved in the math and formula's as I really have a lot of stuff to do instead of this. I think it's been kinda' fun though.
So you were seeing approx. a 50 amp draw with two of them? (Hmmm, not 80 Sniper....) 230rwhp uncorrected for altitude is more than 250 rwhp at sea level (approx 13/14% loss), that may be why I saw basically nothing. Then again, I never said the install was correct either. If I posted a pic of the install, people would be laughing for days. The air filter itself is pure comedy. It did function but man it's bad.
I don't tend to play too much with lower horsepower vehicles, in fact, most 928's wouldn't fall under the 250rwhp criteria. They may be functional on smaller engines but that was not the origional question.
So Mark, what do you think of the Thomas Knight electric supercharger? Read the story in the turbo magazine on his website, it has potential but is still way to in-efficient to be considered worthwhile. The idea of maximum boost at low rpm has it's plus's and minus's, major detonation being one of major minus's.
Mark, what's say you give Sniper a good deal on a couple. I want to know the outcome. I'm sure that if it's good, he'll be telling everyone. Write it off to advertising? I don't think I'd pull an Andy Keel and fly out to help him install them though, kinda' cost in-effective.
(12 gauge wire will handle 50 amps? I guess I'll rewire all my fan systems that draw 20 amps with 12 gauge wire to save money......stupid me, I've been using 10 gauge!)
08-02-2005, 08:55 PM
#130
Drifting
Hey Mark, on Thomas's website and history, he uses 20 horsepower worth of electrical energy to provide 8psi on a 3 liter. He had a long tough time designing 3 starter motors to be able to turn fast and hard enough to turn the supercharger. That's 8psi on a 3 liter, not near 14.7 psi on a 5 liter........
The horsepower gains you speak of are created by additional fuel, not just compressing the intake air. "On dragsters, 1khp creates 5k hp." With judicial use of nitro-methane!
Customer, I'll be back.....
The horsepower gains you speak of are created by additional fuel, not just compressing the intake air. "On dragsters, 1khp creates 5k hp." With judicial use of nitro-methane!
Customer, I'll be back.....
08-02-2005, 09:32 PM
#131
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Princeton, NJ, USA
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey. This is kind of off-topic, but it is about forced air induction.
People do twin turbos. People do supercharging. Why nobody did try to do supercharger/turbo combo? I mean theoretically, it should be good perfomancewise, becouse the more air comes in, the more air comes out, so, the supercharger would kind of "send" the air, and turbos would kind of "catch" it. And it could be more space efficient becouse they would be mounted in different places. There is even the possibility of twin turbo/supercharger combo. Had anybody done it? Any thoughts?
Klim
P.S. God, if I would only have spare 10K to spend...
People do twin turbos. People do supercharging. Why nobody did try to do supercharger/turbo combo? I mean theoretically, it should be good perfomancewise, becouse the more air comes in, the more air comes out, so, the supercharger would kind of "send" the air, and turbos would kind of "catch" it. And it could be more space efficient becouse they would be mounted in different places. There is even the possibility of twin turbo/supercharger combo. Had anybody done it? Any thoughts?
Klim
P.S. God, if I would only have spare 10K to spend...
08-02-2005, 09:46 PM
#132
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Not close enough to VIR.
Posts: 9,429
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Sequential super/turbocharging has been done. I don't think it has been tried on a 928. Engine management with boost is already a hurdle for a 928. The piping and control for a sequential super/turbocharger system would be MUCH worse.
08-02-2005, 10:57 PM
#134
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by mulik51
Who did the super/turbo combo? Just interested about the results...
Klim
Klim
08-02-2005, 11:13 PM
#135
Campeck Rulez
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If, like me, they want better partial throttle response, they needs look elsewhere.
whoa now...why is that?
a turbocharger can make boost at half throttle. and it does make driving one a little weird if youve never driven a turbocharged car before ( <knows) so. whats the problem with hooking up the e-rams to work at say...80% throttle?
whoa now...why is that?
a turbocharger can make boost at half throttle. and it does make driving one a little weird if youve never driven a turbocharged car before ( <knows) so. whats the problem with hooking up the e-rams to work at say...80% throttle?