Ethanol in Fuel
06-01-2016, 03:40 AM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
Ethanol in Fuel
As part of the premium vs regular fuel debate I mentioned I use premium here in the UK due to lower ethanol quantities in the premium. E10 (10% or less) in regular and E5 (less than 5%) premium/super. I had based this view on general opposition here in the UK to E10 fuel from classic/older car owners who believe that ethanol in the fuel can damage the fuel system and engine in cars not designed for it. What I didn't know until I found the link last night is that Porsche in the UK had given official notice that E10 is not sutable for our cars or any Porsche made prior to 1996.
http://www.porsche.com/uk/aboutporsc...-05-23-classic
This notice has been in place since 2011 but appears to have not attracted much attention that I'm aware of. As a result I suspect many here in the UK are filling with E10. Going forward (2017) I believe E10 will be phased into all our fuel in the UK and Europe so we will have no choice but to run fuel that is not suitable. For you guys in the US I'm reading that E10 is already in use and maybe even E15.
So what is the deal here? What in the 928 is not compatible with high ethanol fuel?
http://www.porsche.com/uk/aboutporsc...-05-23-classic
This notice has been in place since 2011 but appears to have not attracted much attention that I'm aware of. As a result I suspect many here in the UK are filling with E10. Going forward (2017) I believe E10 will be phased into all our fuel in the UK and Europe so we will have no choice but to run fuel that is not suitable. For you guys in the US I'm reading that E10 is already in use and maybe even E15.
So what is the deal here? What in the 928 is not compatible with high ethanol fuel?
06-01-2016, 04:04 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
The fuel lines are not designed to handle large amounts of ethanol and will break down and rupture. That's really all there is too it for the most part.
Replace every line with ethanol approved fuel line and you won't have any issues with line failure.
Although because ethanol has less energy than petroleum, you will need to change the fuel maps to be 5% richer on E15 because ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content of gasoline.
I read that up to E10 is okay in my owners manual, if Porsche said it was okay then, I don't see why it wouldn't be okay now.
Replace every line with ethanol approved fuel line and you won't have any issues with line failure.
Although because ethanol has less energy than petroleum, you will need to change the fuel maps to be 5% richer on E15 because ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content of gasoline.
I read that up to E10 is okay in my owners manual, if Porsche said it was okay then, I don't see why it wouldn't be okay now.
06-01-2016, 05:26 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
This is the oil companies playing political games in Europe.
My take on this is that refiners have had difficulty meeting octane requirements since TEL was phased out. Ethanol with a RON of approx 109 is an ideal blending stock to help the blended fuel make octane but in effect the consumer is being short changed if he is charged the same price volume for volume because of the potential for reduced calorific value. What I am not at all sure about in European legislation is to what extent they are obliged to keep stoich at or around 14.7. I would think they cannot escape from this so what they may be planning is to run their octane improvement units less severely to give more high value calorific product but with less octane.
No production engine I am aware of can automatically adapt to changes in stoich. Not sure what happens with US vehicles than run E85 or whatever it is [Ethyl?]. Perhaps they have a user flip switch to allow such operation- quite possible with modern engine management systems but I doubt they could detect such. With a carburettor you could simply block air flow to some extent to richen up the mix as in cold starts.
I would hope the UK will retain super 98 with 5% ethanol max. If the ethanol content is increased to 10% I doubt the impact would be over night- rather the life span of fuel system components will be reduced. We know stock fuel lines do not last forever so the problem will be exacerbated. Things like the in tank pump hose and maybe some of the pump and pressure regulator/damper internals will be impacted with shorter half lives. We already have solutions for the fuel lines available and that is the potentially serious failure. The other components are more functional failures.
I cannot envisage any legislation being accepted by the motor industry that changes stoich- the implications are way too huge.
Clearly an area that needs a bit more investigation.
Rgds
Fred
My take on this is that refiners have had difficulty meeting octane requirements since TEL was phased out. Ethanol with a RON of approx 109 is an ideal blending stock to help the blended fuel make octane but in effect the consumer is being short changed if he is charged the same price volume for volume because of the potential for reduced calorific value. What I am not at all sure about in European legislation is to what extent they are obliged to keep stoich at or around 14.7. I would think they cannot escape from this so what they may be planning is to run their octane improvement units less severely to give more high value calorific product but with less octane.
No production engine I am aware of can automatically adapt to changes in stoich. Not sure what happens with US vehicles than run E85 or whatever it is [Ethyl?]. Perhaps they have a user flip switch to allow such operation- quite possible with modern engine management systems but I doubt they could detect such. With a carburettor you could simply block air flow to some extent to richen up the mix as in cold starts.
I would hope the UK will retain super 98 with 5% ethanol max. If the ethanol content is increased to 10% I doubt the impact would be over night- rather the life span of fuel system components will be reduced. We know stock fuel lines do not last forever so the problem will be exacerbated. Things like the in tank pump hose and maybe some of the pump and pressure regulator/damper internals will be impacted with shorter half lives. We already have solutions for the fuel lines available and that is the potentially serious failure. The other components are more functional failures.
I cannot envisage any legislation being accepted by the motor industry that changes stoich- the implications are way too huge.
Clearly an area that needs a bit more investigation.
Rgds
Fred
06-01-2016, 05:33 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
"Flex fuel" cars have a flex fuel sensor in the fuel lines that senses what percentage of alcohol you have and adjust the fuel curve after that up to E85.
06-01-2016, 07:03 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
I believe they are also big on this in Sweden, less so in other European countries.
Is this a modulating type of analyser or is it an either/or type of thing [i.e. fixed programmes].?
The trouble with E85 is that volumetrically you are going to use about 25% more fuel all things being equal so the range is reduced noticeably. I would think it burns cleaner though.
06-01-2016, 07:59 AM
#6
Pro
Thread Starter
So I take it original parts fuel lines that are still sold by Porsche will no be ethanol approved or have they updated them? If not then I assume the alternative is aftermarket such as Greg's?
What about the steel fuel lines? I read that ethanol absorbes water moisture causing corrosion. Would these rust from the inside out? Mine are looking a bit rusty on the outside and will need replacing at some point. In fact I have just found a leak at the tank somewhere that I need to investigate so may be doing that sooner rather than later.
As far as I know E5 super will start the get phased out in Jan 2017. Not sure if allowances will be made or not but I think EU regulations state that by 2020 10% fuel must be renewable. I believe the UK had wanted to introduce this a few years ago but gave it a 3 year reprieve as there were too many incompatible cars on the road. They hope that more of these cars will have been scrapped by the time it comes into force.
What about the steel fuel lines? I read that ethanol absorbes water moisture causing corrosion. Would these rust from the inside out? Mine are looking a bit rusty on the outside and will need replacing at some point. In fact I have just found a leak at the tank somewhere that I need to investigate so may be doing that sooner rather than later.
As far as I know E5 super will start the get phased out in Jan 2017. Not sure if allowances will be made or not but I think EU regulations state that by 2020 10% fuel must be renewable. I believe the UK had wanted to introduce this a few years ago but gave it a 3 year reprieve as there were too many incompatible cars on the road. They hope that more of these cars will have been scrapped by the time it comes into force.
06-01-2016, 08:03 AM
#7
Racer
There are some after market ECUs available for flex fuel and running E85.
The "E" represents ethanol and the 85 is the % of ethanol. . One problem with E85 in the US is the standards have changed. They can provide down to 51% ethanol and still be within government spec. That and the fact that consumers will fill up regular 87 octane one week then E85 the next. This leaves a mixture of something in between. The ECUs have to adapt to that fuel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
There are other issues regarding moisture as well.
The "E" represents ethanol and the 85 is the % of ethanol. . One problem with E85 in the US is the standards have changed. They can provide down to 51% ethanol and still be within government spec. That and the fact that consumers will fill up regular 87 octane one week then E85 the next. This leaves a mixture of something in between. The ECUs have to adapt to that fuel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
There are other issues regarding moisture as well.
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06-01-2016, 10:36 AM
#8
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Most 928s in the US would be dead by now if E10 was seriously harmful to them. Ethanol-free gasoline has been mostly unavailable in the US for at least ten years, I think.
The safest thing to say about OEM fuel lines and other fuel components is that compatibility was not part of the specifications, and was unknown before E10 was adopted. Seems to me that's no longer the case given the experience in the US. Then again, without compatibility being part of the specification, the specific parts in our cars might vary over time as Porsche used various suppliers.
In my area, ethanol-free premium has become available in the last year or two. The first station selling it aimed it at boat-owners. I don't know why boat engines (two- or four-cycle) might be more sensitive, except that they sit around unused more often, and especially over the winter. The water-absorption bugaboo?
The catch is that it's only 91 octane rather than normal premium's 93. I've heard people say they're the same, considering, but if they were the same, they would measure the same. I do buy the ethanol-free stuff for the 928 when convenient - which offends my own sense of scientific validity - but the Cayman gets 93. Before winter storage, all cars get ethanol-free stuff if I can manage it.
The safest thing to say about OEM fuel lines and other fuel components is that compatibility was not part of the specifications, and was unknown before E10 was adopted. Seems to me that's no longer the case given the experience in the US. Then again, without compatibility being part of the specification, the specific parts in our cars might vary over time as Porsche used various suppliers.
In my area, ethanol-free premium has become available in the last year or two. The first station selling it aimed it at boat-owners. I don't know why boat engines (two- or four-cycle) might be more sensitive, except that they sit around unused more often, and especially over the winter. The water-absorption bugaboo?
The catch is that it's only 91 octane rather than normal premium's 93. I've heard people say they're the same, considering, but if they were the same, they would measure the same. I do buy the ethanol-free stuff for the 928 when convenient - which offends my own sense of scientific validity - but the Cayman gets 93. Before winter storage, all cars get ethanol-free stuff if I can manage it.
06-01-2016, 11:37 AM
#9
Shameful Thread Killer
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Rennlist Member
Porsche already got your money on sale of the vintage cars, and any way they can claim are now non-drivable will push you into getting a shiny new 911 that runs on E10. Of course that notice was written by their legal dept in case of carbeque you can't come back and sue Porsche, because you violated the notice and used E10 gas.
Refiners can make motor fuel with up to 115 Octane without using TEL or Ethanol, but it's expensive blend with some esoteric and costly chemicals. What they can't make is cheap fuel over about 91 Octane. Since the US consumes millions of gallons of gas every day, and Yerrup isn't far behind, that means that cheap wins, and Ethanol is also govt subsidized(why refiners/oil companies need to be subsidized is beyond the scope of this discussion - but,,, really?) which keeps the oil companies richer.
Various parts of the fuel system do not react well to Ethanol laced fuels for a variety of reasons. Mostly the plastic and rubber compounds will become softer, and sometimes gooey and may fail or leak. We've had plenty of trouble in the US with Ethanol damaging pumps, flex lines, solid lines, and injector components and seals. Of course, boats suffer the most with cheap plastic or FG tanks, and old carbs that sit all winter in most cases. Ethanol laced fuels are strictly prohibited in older aircraft engines, but some of the newer designs are accepting of Ethanol but - they do not have the power rating of the original engine with non-Eth fuel which can be problematic.
Refiners can make motor fuel with up to 115 Octane without using TEL or Ethanol, but it's expensive blend with some esoteric and costly chemicals. What they can't make is cheap fuel over about 91 Octane. Since the US consumes millions of gallons of gas every day, and Yerrup isn't far behind, that means that cheap wins, and Ethanol is also govt subsidized(why refiners/oil companies need to be subsidized is beyond the scope of this discussion - but,,, really?) which keeps the oil companies richer.
Various parts of the fuel system do not react well to Ethanol laced fuels for a variety of reasons. Mostly the plastic and rubber compounds will become softer, and sometimes gooey and may fail or leak. We've had plenty of trouble in the US with Ethanol damaging pumps, flex lines, solid lines, and injector components and seals. Of course, boats suffer the most with cheap plastic or FG tanks, and old carbs that sit all winter in most cases. Ethanol laced fuels are strictly prohibited in older aircraft engines, but some of the newer designs are accepting of Ethanol but - they do not have the power rating of the original engine with non-Eth fuel which can be problematic.
06-01-2016, 08:09 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Non-ethanol gas is around. Some places have it more available than others.
I used to run non-ethanol 87 in an old (like 1957 model year) Cessna 182. We had our own tank, and had the gas delivered by a fuel company. Had to ask special for non-ethanol, and it cost a bit more, but we didn't have to pay road tax so it kind of balanced.
I run E10 93 octane in my 928 (85 Euro) and E10 87 in my 944 (83). 10 years of owning the 944, including parking it during the winter (with a full tank of gas and a can of seafoam). No fuel line problems.