The great Kibort Amsoil challenge
06-03-2016, 08:16 PM
#106
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
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I think the offer by Rennlisters to help buy the Todd motor for Mark was totally voluntary. I was one of the contributors and I helped Mark install heads, put the motor in the car and do some drive around tuning to make sure the mixtures and timing were fairly safe. That was many years ago. What? More than 5 years? And the engine is still healthy. Unbelieveable but true. Personally I think Mark is a very good driver, although I have zero credentials to support my opinion. I've just watched him race many times over the years, before and after the Todd motor was installed. He is a smooth driver which I think contributes to the durability of the motor more than the oil. I will always admire Mark for rescuing the Holbert car, putting it back on the road and doing his best with very limited resources to keep racing weekend after weekend. No small feat. That car ran for a number of years before it succumbed to an encounter with an out of control Honda. You can decry that Mark hasn't won some more notable series of races. And Mark certainly has an ego that provokes reactions rather than responses. I still admire his passion and dedication to the 928 and believe in his way has been a very respectable owner of the Todd motor. Those who have accomplished more than Mark, feel free to criticize.
I appreciate that Mark represents our cars publicly in race conditions. A lot of respect, though there isn't that much in the Porsche universe, for the 928 is the result of Mark Anderson and Mark Kibort's track efforts and results. For that, we should all be grateful.
Keep it running Mark.
06-04-2016, 03:02 AM
#107
Rennlist Member
+928
I appreciate that Mark represents our cars publicly in race conditions. A lot of respect, though there isn't that much in the Porsche universe, for the 928 is the result of Mark Anderson and Mark Kibort's track efforts and results. For that, we should all be grateful.
Keep it running Mark.
I appreciate that Mark represents our cars publicly in race conditions. A lot of respect, though there isn't that much in the Porsche universe, for the 928 is the result of Mark Anderson and Mark Kibort's track efforts and results. For that, we should all be grateful.
Keep it running Mark.
Mark
06-05-2016, 09:08 PM
#108
Mark,
Here is the video you requested. This is the start and a the first few laps of the Saturday race. Car 271 is a Turbo Cup with 900+ RWHP and 336 is another Turbo Cup with a reported 600+ RWHP, so no, I did not miss a shift or get a bad start:
Cheers,
Here is the video you requested. This is the start and a the first few laps of the Saturday race. Car 271 is a Turbo Cup with 900+ RWHP and 336 is another Turbo Cup with a reported 600+ RWHP, so no, I did not miss a shift or get a bad start:
Cheers,
DUANE, sorry, i do that sometimes. didnt mean to take anytihing away from the driving. you are mastering willow. my point is that it seems to me,a and if you do this long enough with enough practice you get real good.... seems you are there for sure now. the point about willow, at least to me.. its a real fun track. not that challenging from the driver difficulty perspective as it lacks the dive bomb braking areas. lots of gear changes that bodes well for guys that do that well. its more about knowing the line, confidence in the car and grip (skill level there for sure) . again, i can see the slower cars run from me in that one section.... i know i can go through it a little faster, but that will take some more laps there.
ah... i understand about your omega slowness and the 2.5mph not making much diff. sounds like if you didnt have that gear change and control thing, the lap time would have been really close to your best? interesting. thats the thing about downshifting.. it has to have the time to be worth it vs the .1 or .2 seconds of "negative" power. that entire area of the omega is filled with little bursts of power. (on off throttle). i can see why that might not help there.
as a coorlation data point.... our yardstick, Anderson has been driving willow springs for years and years. class champ, in the 928, in the cup car, etc. you are running faster than he is , by a good margin and i think you are doing it on DOTs to boot! his best was 124 at willow springs, even as he added HP from 420 to 520...... you are running 1:22.xx yet if you go to sears, thunderhill, laguna, that dominance is lost to other cars. thats why i think willow is such a handling /"*****" track. (and yes, its a skill too!) Ill eat my word if you run 1:30 at laguna andersons time and the time of most evenly prepared and HP/weight racers and buy you a beer!!
my car is 1:35.xx as a best .... lots of 1:36s over the past 7 years. all on used tires... i think with a set of new ones, i might be able to get in the low 1:35s as a goal. but, i dont think even with anderson driving it, on the tires i had, that its much faster than a 1:28 car on its best day at Willows.
so, let me say, my impression is just my impression and im going WAY slower than you are at Willow. im sure it takes on a much different personality at 122 than it does at 1:31.
It's not worse or better ,its just different. LOVE the speed and actually like it better than most tracks due to letting the car stretch its legs and there is relatively little shifting and braking. so its really a get-the -car -on -edge and keep it there type of track.
look forward to getting out there with you at laguna. I hope i can make it. have to deal with some family obligations......
ah... i understand about your omega slowness and the 2.5mph not making much diff. sounds like if you didnt have that gear change and control thing, the lap time would have been really close to your best? interesting. thats the thing about downshifting.. it has to have the time to be worth it vs the .1 or .2 seconds of "negative" power. that entire area of the omega is filled with little bursts of power. (on off throttle). i can see why that might not help there.
as a coorlation data point.... our yardstick, Anderson has been driving willow springs for years and years. class champ, in the 928, in the cup car, etc. you are running faster than he is , by a good margin and i think you are doing it on DOTs to boot! his best was 124 at willow springs, even as he added HP from 420 to 520...... you are running 1:22.xx yet if you go to sears, thunderhill, laguna, that dominance is lost to other cars. thats why i think willow is such a handling /"*****" track. (and yes, its a skill too!) Ill eat my word if you run 1:30 at laguna andersons time and the time of most evenly prepared and HP/weight racers and buy you a beer!!
my car is 1:35.xx as a best .... lots of 1:36s over the past 7 years. all on used tires... i think with a set of new ones, i might be able to get in the low 1:35s as a goal. but, i dont think even with anderson driving it, on the tires i had, that its much faster than a 1:28 car on its best day at Willows.
so, let me say, my impression is just my impression and im going WAY slower than you are at Willow. im sure it takes on a much different personality at 122 than it does at 1:31.
It's not worse or better ,its just different. LOVE the speed and actually like it better than most tracks due to letting the car stretch its legs and there is relatively little shifting and braking. so its really a get-the -car -on -edge and keep it there type of track.
look forward to getting out there with you at laguna. I hope i can make it. have to deal with some family obligations......
06-06-2016, 02:55 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
great video.... thanks for sharing.. YES, you just have to haul the mail around 8, no excuses! I cant wait to go back!
Mark
06-06-2016, 03:12 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
I watched the video and I wonder if I got this right. it seemed that your UP-shift to turn 5 to 4th gear was eliminated so you just kept the car in 3rd into 4, 5, 6 and then shifted into 4th at the hump, and 5th down the back straight. (example... around 7:00 on the video).
prior laps looked a little awkward going from 3rd to 4th down the hill and back into 3rd to 6 . however leaving it in 3rd on the exit would probably get that extra punch you need . so, im wondering what worked best... what i saw on the video at 7:00 or something else. I was just a little confused by your below statement. wanted to see if you had it backward.
(at 8:30 you go back to the quick upshift and downshift before 6, but then you also downshift to 4th at 9 which you didnt do the lap earlier. i suppose that is better too, as there is a decent amount of time in 4th before turn 9 that could give you 50hp more to accelerate wtih before the 5th gear change down the main straight)
as far as the 928 at Laguna. my best is a 1:36, but im thinking i could run faster on new tires, which i finally got. Ill have used them for one weekend by the tiime i get there. Anderson ran 1:31 (1:30.7) on his best lap, on slicks and about 2850lbs. im close to you ...... at about 3000lbs (3050# POC weight)
Im trying very hard to make it to that POC laguna weekend. that would be fun. JR might have his car back by then too.
Mark
prior laps looked a little awkward going from 3rd to 4th down the hill and back into 3rd to 6 . however leaving it in 3rd on the exit would probably get that extra punch you need . so, im wondering what worked best... what i saw on the video at 7:00 or something else. I was just a little confused by your below statement. wanted to see if you had it backward.
(at 8:30 you go back to the quick upshift and downshift before 6, but then you also downshift to 4th at 9 which you didnt do the lap earlier. i suppose that is better too, as there is a decent amount of time in 4th before turn 9 that could give you 50hp more to accelerate wtih before the 5th gear change down the main straight)
as far as the 928 at Laguna. my best is a 1:36, but im thinking i could run faster on new tires, which i finally got. Ill have used them for one weekend by the tiime i get there. Anderson ran 1:31 (1:30.7) on his best lap, on slicks and about 2850lbs. im close to you ...... at about 3000lbs (3050# POC weight)
Im trying very hard to make it to that POC laguna weekend. that would be fun. JR might have his car back by then too.
Mark
How did I lose time? Because I made a mistake - both in car control and in trying a different gear off of T5. I should have stayed in 4th vs. shifting down to 3rd and then back up to 4th - the added acceleration did not cover the gear change speed loss on entry to T5 and approach to T6. Reviewing several laps showed me that I carried more speed through and off of T5 in 4th. Nothing to do with wind.
>>>>>snip Not sure what the 928 runs. I suspect we can get the car sub 1:34, but it will be a stretch. The POC event this year is a 92db day so we need to add back the mufflers and remove the diffuser (and pull DF off the front). Much of this will depend on the HP we can get though the mufflers as we can't easily remove more weight (we are at about 3050#).
Look forward to seeing you there.
Cheers,
>>>>>snip Not sure what the 928 runs. I suspect we can get the car sub 1:34, but it will be a stretch. The POC event this year is a 92db day so we need to add back the mufflers and remove the diffuser (and pull DF off the front). Much of this will depend on the HP we can get though the mufflers as we can't easily remove more weight (we are at about 3050#).
Look forward to seeing you there.
Cheers,
06-06-2016, 03:13 PM
#111
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Hey MK,
Regardless of what some here say, many of us know your can drive and really do appreciate the championing of the 928 in racing.
Best regards,
R
Regardless of what some here say, many of us know your can drive and really do appreciate the championing of the 928 in racing.
Best regards,
R
06-06-2016, 04:36 PM
#112
Mark,
What works best in my car to go to 3rd at T3, stay there though 4A and 4B (top of the hill) and shift to 4th down the hill and leave it there through T5, then pull 5th heading down to the hill after T6..
In the video I was trying 3rd through T5 after a quick upshift to 4th off of 4B. If I stay in 3rd I spend too much time on the rev limiter down the hill. And the limited use of the extra HP in 3rd through T5 does not make up for the time lost with the extra shift - not enough time at WOT (proved with data). I did this through the full race as a test to see if I could improve over the prior scheme as I was not being pressed.
The downshift to 4th in T9 was only a result of the car in front of me checking (or me trying to get into the draft when they slowed). 5th works better as I hit the redline in 4th at the point where I am 100% WOT in 5th. The downshift will only help if you are at WOT in the higher gear (and the car is easier to balance in 5th).
Note that the car runs a very flat power curve using the AEM ECU to pull back throttle to maintain a target RWHP (~350). I am very near the peak (within 200RPM) at the shift point(s) and spend nearly all of my time at WOT at or very near peak HP.
The gearing is set to stay in 5th from just before T7 all the way to T1 when not dealing with traffic. 6th is only for AAA speedway. I am curious how the new engine and gearing will work at Laguna.
Cheers,
What works best in my car to go to 3rd at T3, stay there though 4A and 4B (top of the hill) and shift to 4th down the hill and leave it there through T5, then pull 5th heading down to the hill after T6..
In the video I was trying 3rd through T5 after a quick upshift to 4th off of 4B. If I stay in 3rd I spend too much time on the rev limiter down the hill. And the limited use of the extra HP in 3rd through T5 does not make up for the time lost with the extra shift - not enough time at WOT (proved with data). I did this through the full race as a test to see if I could improve over the prior scheme as I was not being pressed.
The downshift to 4th in T9 was only a result of the car in front of me checking (or me trying to get into the draft when they slowed). 5th works better as I hit the redline in 4th at the point where I am 100% WOT in 5th. The downshift will only help if you are at WOT in the higher gear (and the car is easier to balance in 5th).
Note that the car runs a very flat power curve using the AEM ECU to pull back throttle to maintain a target RWHP (~350). I am very near the peak (within 200RPM) at the shift point(s) and spend nearly all of my time at WOT at or very near peak HP.
The gearing is set to stay in 5th from just before T7 all the way to T1 when not dealing with traffic. 6th is only for AAA speedway. I am curious how the new engine and gearing will work at Laguna.
Cheers,
06-06-2016, 05:48 PM
#113
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It's too bad all this effort is spent/wasted on a driver like Kibort.
His best lap of 2:35 at Road America exposes what a hack driver he really is. I personally know DE drivers who are at least 4 seconds of a lap quicker with equivalent hp in a heavier car.
Anderson is a real race car driver, while Kibort is nothing but an overrated impostor with a much-overblown sense of self, based simply upon lap times at Road America.
A 2:35 at Road America is laughable for anyone who claims to be a road racer.
For comparison, Joseph, driving Ron's comparable car to Kibort's, on a whim did a 2:32 the same weekend...
Kibort = hack - according to the lap times at Road America, the fastest track in North America.
Lap times do not lie...
His best lap of 2:35 at Road America exposes what a hack driver he really is. I personally know DE drivers who are at least 4 seconds of a lap quicker with equivalent hp in a heavier car.
Anderson is a real race car driver, while Kibort is nothing but an overrated impostor with a much-overblown sense of self, based simply upon lap times at Road America.
A 2:35 at Road America is laughable for anyone who claims to be a road racer.
For comparison, Joseph, driving Ron's comparable car to Kibort's, on a whim did a 2:32 the same weekend...
Kibort = hack - according to the lap times at Road America, the fastest track in North America.
Lap times do not lie...
06-06-2016, 06:16 PM
#114
Rennlist Member
I see. that makes sense. completely.. expecially if you are near the rev limiter down the hill.. with a flat HP curve, that shift is not need and the little gain (if any) would be very short.
I think your car will be ideal at laguna even with the gearing, as the front straight is around 130 maybe you , 135mph and the close ratios will be good for other shift and speed points. the only caveats is hitting rev limiters before 6 and what gear in and out of the corkscrew. but I Like the way you are thinking and evaluating. proven on how fast your times are there and will be at laguna! the stick of your car is quite impressive too! All that aero is really dialed in..... especiallyf for those times on DOTs!
I really hope i can get to Laguna. it would be the first (or by that time, second) time ever on a new set of tires, so it would be interesting to see their effect.
again, great to see you and the car in person and look forward to more porsche racing in the future!
Mark
I think your car will be ideal at laguna even with the gearing, as the front straight is around 130 maybe you , 135mph and the close ratios will be good for other shift and speed points. the only caveats is hitting rev limiters before 6 and what gear in and out of the corkscrew. but I Like the way you are thinking and evaluating. proven on how fast your times are there and will be at laguna! the stick of your car is quite impressive too! All that aero is really dialed in..... especiallyf for those times on DOTs!
I really hope i can get to Laguna. it would be the first (or by that time, second) time ever on a new set of tires, so it would be interesting to see their effect.
again, great to see you and the car in person and look forward to more porsche racing in the future!
Mark
Mark,
What works best in my car to go to 3rd at T3, stay there though 4A and 4B (top of the hill) and shift to 4th down the hill and leave it there through T5, then pull 5th heading down to the hill after T6..
In the video I was trying 3rd through T5 after a quick upshift to 4th off of 4B. If I stay in 3rd I spend too much time on the rev limiter down the hill. And the limited use of the extra HP in 3rd through T5 does not make up for the time lost with the extra shift - not enough time at WOT (proved with data). I did this through the full race as a test to see if I could improve over the prior scheme as I was not being pressed.
The downshift to 4th in T9 was only a result of the car in front of me checking (or me trying to get into the draft when they slowed). 5th works better as I hit the redline in 4th at the point where I am 100% WOT in 5th. The downshift will only help if you are at WOT in the higher gear (and the car is easier to balance in 5th).
Note that the car runs a very flat power curve using the AEM ECU to pull back throttle to maintain a target RWHP (~350). I am very near the peak (within 200RPM) at the shift point(s) and spend nearly all of my time at WOT at or very near peak HP.
The gearing is set to stay in 5th from just before T7 all the way to T1 when not dealing with traffic. 6th is only for AAA speedway. I am curious how the new engine and gearing will work at Laguna.
Cheers,
What works best in my car to go to 3rd at T3, stay there though 4A and 4B (top of the hill) and shift to 4th down the hill and leave it there through T5, then pull 5th heading down to the hill after T6..
In the video I was trying 3rd through T5 after a quick upshift to 4th off of 4B. If I stay in 3rd I spend too much time on the rev limiter down the hill. And the limited use of the extra HP in 3rd through T5 does not make up for the time lost with the extra shift - not enough time at WOT (proved with data). I did this through the full race as a test to see if I could improve over the prior scheme as I was not being pressed.
The downshift to 4th in T9 was only a result of the car in front of me checking (or me trying to get into the draft when they slowed). 5th works better as I hit the redline in 4th at the point where I am 100% WOT in 5th. The downshift will only help if you are at WOT in the higher gear (and the car is easier to balance in 5th).
Note that the car runs a very flat power curve using the AEM ECU to pull back throttle to maintain a target RWHP (~350). I am very near the peak (within 200RPM) at the shift point(s) and spend nearly all of my time at WOT at or very near peak HP.
The gearing is set to stay in 5th from just before T7 all the way to T1 when not dealing with traffic. 6th is only for AAA speedway. I am curious how the new engine and gearing will work at Laguna.
Cheers,
06-06-2016, 09:52 PM
#116
Rennlist Member
Ive heard a lot of good things about the yoko slicks. i tried some used DH Pirellis from world challenge, but they seemed to be the same for 2 sessions (past their usage already) vs the used hoosiers ive been getting. (but at a slightly smaller size)I think if i used a "real " slick, my car might twist in half!
your car sounds pretty tight and not that noisy. should make for an easier time to get the sound down to 92db. I have to put a little contraption on mine with another muffler.. but us front engine boys have a little more room to mount "stuff".
06-06-2016, 09:55 PM
#117
Rennlist Member
06-07-2016, 09:07 PM
#118
Rennlist Member
It's too bad all this effort is spent/wasted on a driver like Kibort.
His best lap of 2:35 at Road America exposes what a hack driver he really is. I personally know DE drivers who are at least 4 seconds of a lap quicker with equivalent hp in a heavier car.
Anderson is a real race car driver, while Kibort is nothing but an overrated impostor with a much-overblown sense of self, based simply upon lap times at Road America.
A 2:35 at Road America is laughable for anyone who claims to be a road racer.
For comparison, Joseph, driving Ron's comparable car to Kibort's, on a whim did a 2:32 the same weekend...
Kibort = hack - according to the lap times at Road America, the fastest track in North America.
Lap times do not lie...
His best lap of 2:35 at Road America exposes what a hack driver he really is. I personally know DE drivers who are at least 4 seconds of a lap quicker with equivalent hp in a heavier car.
Anderson is a real race car driver, while Kibort is nothing but an overrated impostor with a much-overblown sense of self, based simply upon lap times at Road America.
A 2:35 at Road America is laughable for anyone who claims to be a road racer.
For comparison, Joseph, driving Ron's comparable car to Kibort's, on a whim did a 2:32 the same weekend...
Kibort = hack - according to the lap times at Road America, the fastest track in North America.
Lap times do not lie...
Mark, you need to let some of these snide remarks slide off your back.
I have a video of one of the early Super Bowls where this little kid is mouthing off to the losing quarterback saying how he’s no good and “I can beat you myself”. The quarterback just rolls his eyes, chuckles and walks off…
Whenever someone on here does that, just keep that image in your mind.
You are not a team sponsored racecar driver. If something breaks, YOU have to fix it.
The young kid racers and team sponsored drivers can take chances, go for gaps, try to skim the wall without kissing it.
Private drivers don’t have that luxury. Other drivers can respect the times you’re putting up because they KNOW you can’t grab every last piece of pavement and so you are continously losing fractions of a second where you can't dance on the razor's edge with your lines, engine, shifts, braking, tires, etc. All these little fractions add up to seconds over the course of a lap…
You are on the hook for anything that breaks or blows up, so you can’t ride the redline and can’t push things til they break…you HAVE to give yourself that safety margin if you want to survive very long on a limited budget…
Your peers (other private racers) KNOW you can’t push to the limit
THEIR opinions are the ones that truly matter…
Frank
08-08-2016, 02:25 PM
#119
snip ...
as far as the 928 at Laguna. my best is a 1:36, but im thinking i could run faster on new tires, which i finally got. Ill have used them for one weekend by the tiime i get there. Anderson ran 1:31 (1:30.7) on his best lap, on slicks and about 2850lbs. im close to you ...... at about 3000lbs (3050# POC weight)
Im trying very hard to make it to that POC laguna weekend. that would be fun. JR might have his car back by then too.
Mark
as far as the 928 at Laguna. my best is a 1:36, but im thinking i could run faster on new tires, which i finally got. Ill have used them for one weekend by the tiime i get there. Anderson ran 1:31 (1:30.7) on his best lap, on slicks and about 2850lbs. im close to you ...... at about 3000lbs (3050# POC weight)
Im trying very hard to make it to that POC laguna weekend. that would be fun. JR might have his car back by then too.
Mark
First, it was a great weekend with 97 POC racers and Time trailers (and another 30 or so in a run group we sold to Track Masters). This was a 92db weekend and we had relatively few issues with sound - I believe most/all were quickly resolved.
Re: lap times for the Cayman - we ran a 1:32.9 in Saturday qualifying and 1:34/1:35 in the race. Car was at 350 RWHP and came off track at 3026#.
Cheers,
08-08-2016, 02:54 PM
#120
Rennlist Member
Mark, to close the loop on this as we just returned from the POC weekend at Laguna Seca.
First, it was a great weekend with 97 POC racers and Time trailers (and another 30 or so in a run group we sold to Track Masters). This was a 92db weekend and we had relatively few issues with sound - I believe most/all were quickly resolved.
Re: lap times for the Cayman - we ran a 1:32.9 in Saturday qualifying and 1:34/1:35 in the race. Car was at 350 RWHP and came off track at 3026#.
Cheers,
First, it was a great weekend with 97 POC racers and Time trailers (and another 30 or so in a run group we sold to Track Masters). This was a 92db weekend and we had relatively few issues with sound - I believe most/all were quickly resolved.
Re: lap times for the Cayman - we ran a 1:32.9 in Saturday qualifying and 1:34/1:35 in the race. Car was at 350 RWHP and came off track at 3026#.
Cheers,
1:32 is a amazing in that Cayman. it Really proves you have built a welll handling car and are driving the SNOT out of it. think about it... Henzler in WC on DOTS got down to a 1:32 as well but that was with a motorsport upgrade, 420rwhp + cup car!!!
Anyway, my old dog peaked out at about the 1:37s and probably could have run into the 1:36s as our track was a little dirty for the SCCA weekend... so it would have been fun!! it would have been great to run with you and the POC folks... next year for sure!!
thanks for the update.. great job... any video???