Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
#151
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
I dont need to get credit for anything here, but I'm glad our interactions and information started to get folks thinking.. regardless if sean or greg knew what i was saying, its all discussion and talk. i dont know why they have to act like 3rd graders and be so proud to push someone out of their "group". real mature. It's ok, Jim and i still banter back and forth and i suspect things i say get him thinking, as seen by his responses.
the bottom line, im here to learn or find new ways to improve on the 928 platform.
the bottom line, im here to learn or find new ways to improve on the 928 platform.
#152
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
If Mark wants to take the task on, let him do so. 'Paraphrasing' a book doesn't mean anything and I am no bench racer either. However, paraphrasing a book though is key to gaining further understanding that there are reasons why there are AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERS who figure this stuff out rather than me.
Good God IMO please pull the stick out of your butt. It's been in there all week!
Good God IMO please pull the stick out of your butt. It's been in there all week!
#153
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
If Mark wants to take the task on, let him do so. 'Paraphrasing' a book doesn't mean anything and I am no bench racer either. However, paraphrasing a book though is key to gaining further understanding that there are reasons why there are AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERS who figure this stuff out rather than me.
Good God IMO please pull the stick out of your butt. It's been in there all week!
Good God IMO please pull the stick out of your butt. It's been in there all week!
Are you really expecting someone to actually use your book/internet expertise to build a manifold? You and Mark are so naive when it comes to actually building something.
And I'm keeping the stick where it is for now.
#155
Official Bay Area Patriot
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Fuse 24 Assassin
Rennlist Member
Paraphrasing IS bench racing. First hand experience on the other hand what should be posted, not some "I red this in a book/website/my cousin's bother told me" second hand info. Maybe you've been doing this for such a long time that don't see the difference between the two.
Are you really expecting someone to actually use your book/internet expertise to build a manifold? You and Mark are so naive when it comes to actually building something.
And I'm keeping the stick where it is for now.
Are you really expecting someone to actually use your book/internet expertise to build a manifold? You and Mark are so naive when it comes to actually building something.
And I'm keeping the stick where it is for now.
#156
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
OZMO Engineering in Australia does LS3 and other intakes plus offer consulting, development, and manufacturing for ANY V-8 or 4 cylinder..... several different configurations shapes and sizes. Boosted or N A they do it all.
Seem to add some horsepower but some of the carbon fiber work is beautiful !!! And unlike my earlier attempts to find suitable parts this is the real deal
Seem to add some horsepower but some of the carbon fiber work is beautiful !!! And unlike my earlier attempts to find suitable parts this is the real deal
#158
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
just to add fuel to this fire, since i have no skin in the game but want to see where kibort or others take it...
David Vizard's intake runner "rule of thumb" (as always, very generalized) is 7" from valve to plenum for 10,000rpm. add 1.7" for each 1000rpm lower.
after measuring the runners of my 944S2 manifold and 4v intake port (17.34" total), and running through that "equation", i get 4000rpm which is right on for 944S2 peak torque.
after measuring the runners of my 944NA manifold and 2v intake port (19.23" total), and running through that "equation", i get 3000rpm which is right on for 944NA peak torque.
i am going to build a boost manifold with either 14" (if i can fit it) or 7" total length from valve to plenum, for my 928S3/944 hybrid engine project. shooting for 6000rpm "tuning".
for your information:
944-2v head (basically 928 2v euro) is 82mm from valve to gasket face.
the 928S3 has ~85mm from center of intake valve (where stem meets head) to gasket face...imagine the S4+ is similar...
get to it already
David Vizard's intake runner "rule of thumb" (as always, very generalized) is 7" from valve to plenum for 10,000rpm. add 1.7" for each 1000rpm lower.
after measuring the runners of my 944S2 manifold and 4v intake port (17.34" total), and running through that "equation", i get 4000rpm which is right on for 944S2 peak torque.
after measuring the runners of my 944NA manifold and 2v intake port (19.23" total), and running through that "equation", i get 3000rpm which is right on for 944NA peak torque.
i am going to build a boost manifold with either 14" (if i can fit it) or 7" total length from valve to plenum, for my 928S3/944 hybrid engine project. shooting for 6000rpm "tuning".
for your information:
944-2v head (basically 928 2v euro) is 82mm from valve to gasket face.
the 928S3 has ~85mm from center of intake valve (where stem meets head) to gasket face...imagine the S4+ is similar...
get to it already
#159
Nordschleife Master
So if the length from plenum to valve is ~16" then the resonance is 4700rpm. I see 4400 on my dyno runs. If it was at 5500rpm that'd be better so add 1.5" to each side of the plenum. A plastic or composite unit would look pretty cool.
Last edited by GlenL; 03-12-2016 at 02:51 PM.
#160
Captain Obvious
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#161
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#162
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Price out the engineering to get something like that to fit on a 928 engine, build a few prototypes to test, price out those three molds, and then get a quote on how much it costs to make a minimum run at the injection mold shop.
Let me know how practical it is, for the tiny 928 market.....where you might sell ten of them....only if they are less than $2,000.
You guys dreaming, at home or at work, have no idea what it takes to accomplish designing, testing, and then making a new manifold.
You guys think, for a minute, that the manifold on that Aston Martin was simply sketched out and produced, before months of design work and testing was done?
Let me know how practical it is, for the tiny 928 market.....where you might sell ten of them....only if they are less than $2,000.
You guys dreaming, at home or at work, have no idea what it takes to accomplish designing, testing, and then making a new manifold.
You guys think, for a minute, that the manifold on that Aston Martin was simply sketched out and produced, before months of design work and testing was done?
Often wondered where the term " it is toast " came from when referring to a blown up engine but I think I am seeing the connection. It is not like someone sent me a letter explaining it....
Been looking at vuvuzelas as a low cost velocity stack option... the solution is out there !!
Been looking at vuvuzelas as a low cost velocity stack option... the solution is out there !!
But mostly just subscribing to see where this goes.
If you believe that Porsche left 100hp on the table with a simple intake change you are delusional. Yes, the 928 was not allowed to upstage the 911 turbo for sure, but they didn't go from 4.5 litres to 5.4 litres and all the expense if they could have JUST put on a better manifold.......
#163
Rennlist Member
This sub thread is almost the best part of this thread!
But mostly just subscribing to see where this goes.
If you believe that Porsche left 100hp on the table with a simple intake change you are delusional. Yes, the 928 was not allowed to upstage the 911 turbo for sure, but they didn't go from 4.5 litres to 5.4 litres and all the expense if they could have JUST put on a better manifold.......
But mostly just subscribing to see where this goes.
If you believe that Porsche left 100hp on the table with a simple intake change you are delusional. Yes, the 928 was not allowed to upstage the 911 turbo for sure, but they didn't go from 4.5 litres to 5.4 litres and all the expense if they could have JUST put on a better manifold.......
yes, its mostly ALL intake.
want examples... go look at the vantage i showed as an example
that cam and CR is not far off the GT.. yet, its getting 335rwhp
(mostly intake) and doing it with a 4.3 liter engine.
look at the boss mustang.. a 5 liter engine, same type of intake and less performance cam and CRs, getting near 450rwhp (same as our strokers)
why is that?? INTAKE!!
the intake is leaving ALL SORTS of power on the table. its why anderson and fan just bolted it on with HOME DEPOT parts and got almost exactly 100hp gains from that with no tuning. (stock ecu, stock MAF, but stuffed in a 4" home depot sewer pipe)
all this is discussion until someone puts a modified intake on a 928.
and when they do, the HP gains will be phenomenal.
#164
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
really? a 5 liter engine with 275 rear wheel HP.... when there are a TON of cars on the road in that era that have near double the HP/liter?
yes, its mostly ALL intake.
want examples... go look at the vantage i showed as an example
that cam and CR is not far off the GT.. yet, its getting 335rwhp
(mostly intake) and doing it with a 4.3 liter engine.
look at the boss mustang.. a 5 liter engine, same type of intake and less performance cam and CRs, getting near 450rwhp (same as our strokers)
why is that?? INTAKE!!
the intake is leaving ALL SORTS of power on the table. its why anderson and fan just bolted it on with HOME DEPOT parts and got almost exactly 100hp gains from that with no tuning. (stock ecu, stock MAF, but stuffed in a 4" home depot sewer pipe)
all this is discussion until someone puts a modified intake on a 928.
and when they do, the HP gains will be phenomenal.
yes, its mostly ALL intake.
want examples... go look at the vantage i showed as an example
that cam and CR is not far off the GT.. yet, its getting 335rwhp
(mostly intake) and doing it with a 4.3 liter engine.
look at the boss mustang.. a 5 liter engine, same type of intake and less performance cam and CRs, getting near 450rwhp (same as our strokers)
why is that?? INTAKE!!
the intake is leaving ALL SORTS of power on the table. its why anderson and fan just bolted it on with HOME DEPOT parts and got almost exactly 100hp gains from that with no tuning. (stock ecu, stock MAF, but stuffed in a 4" home depot sewer pipe)
all this is discussion until someone puts a modified intake on a 928.
and when they do, the HP gains will be phenomenal.
#165
Rennlist Member
I don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. I think the highest horsepower stock Mustang in '95 (being generous and allowing for the highest horsepower 928) was about 240. What stock Mustang of that era do you see making 450rwhp?? And the Vantage...aren't they supercharged? If that's what you mean by "intake," then yeah, OK. But if you're comparing to more modern cars, then the biggest thing you're missing is electronics. Cars are WAY more efficient now at extracting every last ounce of potential, and most of that IMO is due to computers/electronics.
That being said, if Mark Andersen REALLY just cobbled together some Home Depot bits and pieces and added 100hp...WHY AREN'T YOU DOING THAT?! Hell, why isn't EVERYONE doing that? I'd cheerfully replace my peeling pipe organ with some crappy Home Depot stuff for 100hp.
That being said, if Mark Andersen REALLY just cobbled together some Home Depot bits and pieces and added 100hp...WHY AREN'T YOU DOING THAT?! Hell, why isn't EVERYONE doing that? I'd cheerfully replace my peeling pipe organ with some crappy Home Depot stuff for 100hp.
really? a 5 liter engine with 275 rear wheel HP.... when there are a TON of cars on the road in that era that have near double the HP/liter?
yes, its mostly ALL intake.
want examples... go look at the vantage i showed as an example
that cam and CR is not far off the GT.. yet, its getting 335rwhp
(mostly intake) and doing it with a 4.3 liter engine.
look at the boss mustang.. a 5 liter engine, same type of intake and less performance cam and CRs, getting near 450rwhp (same as our strokers)
why is that?? INTAKE!!
the intake is leaving ALL SORTS of power on the table. its why anderson and fan just bolted it on with HOME DEPOT parts and got almost exactly 100hp gains from that with no tuning. (stock ecu, stock MAF, but stuffed in a 4" home depot sewer pipe)
all this is discussion until someone puts a modified intake on a 928.
and when they do, the HP gains will be phenomenal.
yes, its mostly ALL intake.
want examples... go look at the vantage i showed as an example
that cam and CR is not far off the GT.. yet, its getting 335rwhp
(mostly intake) and doing it with a 4.3 liter engine.
look at the boss mustang.. a 5 liter engine, same type of intake and less performance cam and CRs, getting near 450rwhp (same as our strokers)
why is that?? INTAKE!!
the intake is leaving ALL SORTS of power on the table. its why anderson and fan just bolted it on with HOME DEPOT parts and got almost exactly 100hp gains from that with no tuning. (stock ecu, stock MAF, but stuffed in a 4" home depot sewer pipe)
all this is discussion until someone puts a modified intake on a 928.
and when they do, the HP gains will be phenomenal.