How to buy a car for $6600 and sell it for $200,000 and lose money on the deal.
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How to buy a car for $6600 and sell it for $200,000 and lose money on the deal.
Warning: ZERO 928 specific content in this post. I'm fully anticipating the flogging I'll get over this. With all the talk of rising values, restorations, and just general maintenance with lack of parts.....I thought this was fitting for our community.
Colin Comer is a semi-local (to me) car collector, a regular at Road America and a really nice down to earth guy.
I've had the pleasure of being up close and personal to many cars in his collection, including more than a couple Shelby Cobra's (he's quite the fanatic when it comes to Shelby's).
So why am I posting this here?
It's an example (albeit a very extreme one) how the car collecting hobby seldom takes into account the end game value. Frankly I'm sick and tired of post after post with bellyachers pointing out the car will only be worth $X when you are finished....... So what?
It's also an excellent example showing what "other" collectors do when stuff is NLA, they figure it out. We are not the only marque without OEM fuel lines, various gaskets, and shops with below average knowledge about our cars.
In this article Colin mentions having to make gaskets (complete with molds) and his own timing gears.
You think we in the 928 world have it rough? Try finding parts for the 68 Ghibli a local friend spent some time with a few years ago.
Anyway, here is the article....and I'm temped to link to it every time someone points out how worthless these cars are as a reason why $X.... should not be spent on them. Frankly I wish such people would sell their 928's and go join the practical living anonymous club or something.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...-land-cruiser/
Colin Comer is a semi-local (to me) car collector, a regular at Road America and a really nice down to earth guy.
I've had the pleasure of being up close and personal to many cars in his collection, including more than a couple Shelby Cobra's (he's quite the fanatic when it comes to Shelby's).
So why am I posting this here?
It's an example (albeit a very extreme one) how the car collecting hobby seldom takes into account the end game value. Frankly I'm sick and tired of post after post with bellyachers pointing out the car will only be worth $X when you are finished....... So what?
It's also an excellent example showing what "other" collectors do when stuff is NLA, they figure it out. We are not the only marque without OEM fuel lines, various gaskets, and shops with below average knowledge about our cars.
In this article Colin mentions having to make gaskets (complete with molds) and his own timing gears.
You think we in the 928 world have it rough? Try finding parts for the 68 Ghibli a local friend spent some time with a few years ago.
Anyway, here is the article....and I'm temped to link to it every time someone points out how worthless these cars are as a reason why $X.... should not be spent on them. Frankly I wish such people would sell their 928's and go join the practical living anonymous club or something.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...-land-cruiser/
How I Sold a Toyota Land Cruiser for Nearly $200,000 and Lost Money
Restoration gone wild.
In 2009 I purchased a rusty old Land Cruiser for $6600. In 2015 I sold the same truck for $198,000. And I lost money.
The truck was an old FJ45LV, the ribbed-side, long-wheelbase Land Cruiser wagon built from 1963–1967. Only 5000 or so FJ45Vs were produced, about 1000 of them U.S.-spec, left-hand-drive trucks (hence the L). This generation is unique among FJs, as Toyota used an outside coachbuilder, Gifu Auto Body Co. Ltd., to build them by hand. The limited production numbers, an even higher propensity to rust than your average FJ, and 50 years of attrition makes it tough to find a good FJ45LV. So when I saw this neglected yet solid California ranch truck on eBay, I had to save it.
My original plan was to clean it up, make it run reliably, and drive it. However, as sometimes happens, things got a little out of hand. Before long, the FJ's bare body shell was sitting on my shop floor, the chassis was off getting powder-coated, and I was hunting FJ45LV parts like a man possessed.
Where I couldn't get good used or new-old-stock pieces, I had parts made. For example, most of the body gaskets are not available, so I had molds made to manufacture them. I was able to find NOS timing gears, but when I fired up the correct F engine for the first time after its rebuild, I didn't like their racket. So I had special "quiet" timing gears made. From scratch.
I researched and duplicated every finish and paint color. Fabricated correct, clear plastic fuel lines. Cut apart, rebuilt, and restored the original 1967 Toyota shocks. I removed the original brake hose fittings and recrimped them onto new hoses. The only item I was never able to source was an original rubber floor mat, even after offering a $5000 reward for one. I stopped counting labor hours somewhere around 3000. It was insanity, insanity for the pursuit of a very correct old Land Cruiser.
I succeeded: At the end of the process, I had a near-perfect, like-new FJ45LV. And I was too afraid to drive it. I couldn't bear to hear the first rock make contact with the wet-sanded and buffed paint under the fenders. Neither could I bring myself to drill holes for seatbelts to keep child seats secured. So it sat, and that seemed a shame.
I decided to sell the nicest Land Cruiser I owned. Figuring labor and parts at cost, I had poured more than $200,000 into a Land Cruiser wagon. At retail shop rates, it would be well over $300,000. Labors of love are not without cost. I consigned it to auction with a reserve that truly represented my minimum. The bidding was spirited, and after a few minutes, the hammer fell at $180,000. With a 10 percent commission, the buyer wound up paying $198,000, a world record for any FJ. The FJ45LV I spent five years restoring was no longer mine.
Since the sale, I've spoken to the new owner, and he says he plans to use it. I'm happy for that. I guess never having wet-sanded the underside of fenders comes with certain advantages. Maybe he'll bolt in some seatbelts, too.
SELLING AT AUCTION
LET THE MARKET DECIDE: Although I was painfully aware how much my FJ45LV cost to restore, I had no idea what it was actually worth. Country singer Alan Jackson sold his restored yet heavily modified LV at auction in 2009 for $82,500. Would the marketplace reward a more correct example or value it less? I decided to let buyers decide via auction.
PICK THE RIGHT VENUE: But I didn't want to leave it to just any buyers. The cars sold during the Monterey car week are the best of the best, and I saw the FJ as a potential impulse purchase in a sea of seven- and eight-figure cars. I opted to sell through Mecum Auctions, which, unlike other auction houses, let me set a reserve price and offered to feature it as a prime lot (you don't want to be the first or last to cross the block).
SET A RESERVE: Selling with no reserve is fine for vehicles with established prices or extremely high demand. An FJ45LV has neither, and I'm not a fan of Russian roulette. I set my reserve at $135,000. Most sellers fixate on this number, a mistake. I instead memorized my net reserve after the auction house seller's fee—in my case, $124,200. As soon as you're on the block, the auction company's "seller's ambassador," a.k.a. "the grinder," will ask you what it will take to sell it. Name your net reserve and see where the bidding goes. If it's tough going, you can always lower it. The auction company may also give up some of its fees to make the deal happen.
MIND THE DETAILS: Before shipping the truck to California, I made sure it was clean, had fresh fuel and a fully charged battery, and that it ran flawlessly. I detailed it again on site and stood ready to answer questions from bidders right up to the time it crossed the block. Mecum, for its part, took professional photography for its catalog and let me write the description.
DO THE MATH: Auction companies collect fees from both buyer and seller. So, the $180,000 hammer price on my auction meant the buyer paid $198,000, and I received $165,600, less the $1500 entry fee. This spread between the check the buyer wrote and the check I received helps explain why there are so many collector-car auctions.
VERDICT: I wouldn't do it again. Restorations of this level are tedious, lengthy, and costly. You rarely come out ahead. But nobody climbs Mount Everest because they have to—and I did save a cool old truck without suffering a total financial shellacking. Now I just have to figure out how to get "FJ45LV" off my "followed searches" list on eBay.
Restoration gone wild.
In 2009 I purchased a rusty old Land Cruiser for $6600. In 2015 I sold the same truck for $198,000. And I lost money.
The truck was an old FJ45LV, the ribbed-side, long-wheelbase Land Cruiser wagon built from 1963–1967. Only 5000 or so FJ45Vs were produced, about 1000 of them U.S.-spec, left-hand-drive trucks (hence the L). This generation is unique among FJs, as Toyota used an outside coachbuilder, Gifu Auto Body Co. Ltd., to build them by hand. The limited production numbers, an even higher propensity to rust than your average FJ, and 50 years of attrition makes it tough to find a good FJ45LV. So when I saw this neglected yet solid California ranch truck on eBay, I had to save it.
My original plan was to clean it up, make it run reliably, and drive it. However, as sometimes happens, things got a little out of hand. Before long, the FJ's bare body shell was sitting on my shop floor, the chassis was off getting powder-coated, and I was hunting FJ45LV parts like a man possessed.
Where I couldn't get good used or new-old-stock pieces, I had parts made. For example, most of the body gaskets are not available, so I had molds made to manufacture them. I was able to find NOS timing gears, but when I fired up the correct F engine for the first time after its rebuild, I didn't like their racket. So I had special "quiet" timing gears made. From scratch.
I researched and duplicated every finish and paint color. Fabricated correct, clear plastic fuel lines. Cut apart, rebuilt, and restored the original 1967 Toyota shocks. I removed the original brake hose fittings and recrimped them onto new hoses. The only item I was never able to source was an original rubber floor mat, even after offering a $5000 reward for one. I stopped counting labor hours somewhere around 3000. It was insanity, insanity for the pursuit of a very correct old Land Cruiser.
I succeeded: At the end of the process, I had a near-perfect, like-new FJ45LV. And I was too afraid to drive it. I couldn't bear to hear the first rock make contact with the wet-sanded and buffed paint under the fenders. Neither could I bring myself to drill holes for seatbelts to keep child seats secured. So it sat, and that seemed a shame.
I decided to sell the nicest Land Cruiser I owned. Figuring labor and parts at cost, I had poured more than $200,000 into a Land Cruiser wagon. At retail shop rates, it would be well over $300,000. Labors of love are not without cost. I consigned it to auction with a reserve that truly represented my minimum. The bidding was spirited, and after a few minutes, the hammer fell at $180,000. With a 10 percent commission, the buyer wound up paying $198,000, a world record for any FJ. The FJ45LV I spent five years restoring was no longer mine.
Since the sale, I've spoken to the new owner, and he says he plans to use it. I'm happy for that. I guess never having wet-sanded the underside of fenders comes with certain advantages. Maybe he'll bolt in some seatbelts, too.
SELLING AT AUCTION
LET THE MARKET DECIDE: Although I was painfully aware how much my FJ45LV cost to restore, I had no idea what it was actually worth. Country singer Alan Jackson sold his restored yet heavily modified LV at auction in 2009 for $82,500. Would the marketplace reward a more correct example or value it less? I decided to let buyers decide via auction.
PICK THE RIGHT VENUE: But I didn't want to leave it to just any buyers. The cars sold during the Monterey car week are the best of the best, and I saw the FJ as a potential impulse purchase in a sea of seven- and eight-figure cars. I opted to sell through Mecum Auctions, which, unlike other auction houses, let me set a reserve price and offered to feature it as a prime lot (you don't want to be the first or last to cross the block).
SET A RESERVE: Selling with no reserve is fine for vehicles with established prices or extremely high demand. An FJ45LV has neither, and I'm not a fan of Russian roulette. I set my reserve at $135,000. Most sellers fixate on this number, a mistake. I instead memorized my net reserve after the auction house seller's fee—in my case, $124,200. As soon as you're on the block, the auction company's "seller's ambassador," a.k.a. "the grinder," will ask you what it will take to sell it. Name your net reserve and see where the bidding goes. If it's tough going, you can always lower it. The auction company may also give up some of its fees to make the deal happen.
MIND THE DETAILS: Before shipping the truck to California, I made sure it was clean, had fresh fuel and a fully charged battery, and that it ran flawlessly. I detailed it again on site and stood ready to answer questions from bidders right up to the time it crossed the block. Mecum, for its part, took professional photography for its catalog and let me write the description.
DO THE MATH: Auction companies collect fees from both buyer and seller. So, the $180,000 hammer price on my auction meant the buyer paid $198,000, and I received $165,600, less the $1500 entry fee. This spread between the check the buyer wrote and the check I received helps explain why there are so many collector-car auctions.
VERDICT: I wouldn't do it again. Restorations of this level are tedious, lengthy, and costly. You rarely come out ahead. But nobody climbs Mount Everest because they have to—and I did save a cool old truck without suffering a total financial shellacking. Now I just have to figure out how to get "FJ45LV" off my "followed searches" list on eBay.
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How many times has this happened.
My original plan was to clean it up, make it run reliably, and drive it.
If you're buying the car as an investment, buy one that is already investment grade.
If you're buying one to drive, buy one that is already sorted.
If you like working on them by a project, and shortly after by one that is sorted to drive.
My original plan was to clean it up, make it run reliably, and drive it.
If you're buying the car as an investment, buy one that is already investment grade.
If you're buying one to drive, buy one that is already sorted.
If you like working on them by a project, and shortly after by one that is sorted to drive.
#4
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Eric,
A very poignant thread!
I own and drive a 928 because I like the car and appreciate if for what it really is. Frankly I could not give a stuff about residuals but that is me. When I lost my late S4 I felt more sorry for my car than I did for myself banged up in hospital with a fractured L1 vertebra knowing my friend who protected me was destined for burial.
The S4 motor lives on in my GTS and it bothers me not that it is not the original motor other than any performance loss of course and even that is minimal I suspect given the tune.
Rgds
Fred
A very poignant thread!
I own and drive a 928 because I like the car and appreciate if for what it really is. Frankly I could not give a stuff about residuals but that is me. When I lost my late S4 I felt more sorry for my car than I did for myself banged up in hospital with a fractured L1 vertebra knowing my friend who protected me was destined for burial.
The S4 motor lives on in my GTS and it bothers me not that it is not the original motor other than any performance loss of course and even that is minimal I suspect given the tune.
Rgds
Fred
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#9
Wow - I think that's such a shame (that he sold it). Warren Buffett apparently says to the owners of businesses that he's about to buy that just because he's about to give them a pile of cash doesn't suddenly make them rich. Before receiving the pile of cash they owned a business of the same value. (In fact they probably owned something of a higher value before Warren negotiated them down)
With classic cars it's the same. You own a car you've restored - you probably love that car more than anyone else. Exchanging that 'value' for cash is mostly likely impossible. If you want to sell to move on to another project, fine. But you don't need to sell it to 'earn' its value.
With classic cars it's the same. You own a car you've restored - you probably love that car more than anyone else. Exchanging that 'value' for cash is mostly likely impossible. If you want to sell to move on to another project, fine. But you don't need to sell it to 'earn' its value.
#10
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Cars aren't much different than any other investment. In an efficient market(don't start on me), someone sells because they can make money, and someone else buys because they can make money. Both can't be true, this is the case for a stock, as well as a vintage car.
I've done ok with making money on cars. Not a lot, but enough. Some of my friends in the small aircraft pilot community are car dealers, and let me tell you, private aviation is not for the light of wallet.
So, I'll continue to kvetch about the prices, and cost of 928s and parts. It's what I do. There are people who made money on this transaction. As the story said, the auction house made a nice chunk, the restoration shop(s) made out well, the guy who sold the old shell maybe lost a bit on it, but he got to drive it for a while I'm sure.
Efficient markets means that people who transact things make money somehow, some way. The smart folk know how to buy low, and sell high without spending a lot in the middle. If people are losing money on every car they transact(buy/sell) you are doing something wrong, or - more likely other folks like me are doing something right.
I've done ok with making money on cars. Not a lot, but enough. Some of my friends in the small aircraft pilot community are car dealers, and let me tell you, private aviation is not for the light of wallet.
So, I'll continue to kvetch about the prices, and cost of 928s and parts. It's what I do. There are people who made money on this transaction. As the story said, the auction house made a nice chunk, the restoration shop(s) made out well, the guy who sold the old shell maybe lost a bit on it, but he got to drive it for a while I'm sure.
Efficient markets means that people who transact things make money somehow, some way. The smart folk know how to buy low, and sell high without spending a lot in the middle. If people are losing money on every car they transact(buy/sell) you are doing something wrong, or - more likely other folks like me are doing something right.
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OK a 125 hp six cylinder with a three speed manual trans in a solid axle truck.......sounds like $200,000 to me But that was what one man was willing to pay that day with a very good auctioneer...... so market value !!
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I've been collecting classic cars for the last 15 years and I've only lost money on one car - a 1982 Mercedes W123 230CE. I should never have bought it in the first place - it wan't on my wish list and was a mistake.
Ten years ago I needed to sell some cars to raise money, so I sold a Mercedes 600 that I was restoring and got my money back plus all that I had spent on it. I sold my 230SL Pagoda which I had bought three years previously and doubled my money.I also sold my Mercedes Fintail Station Wagon which I had found in a scrap yard four years previously, did nothing to it and got 100 times what I paid for it. None of these cars I should have sold, as the values have gone stratospheric since then.
All the other cars I own I bought because I like them and not as an investment, although I am conscious of their value and that they will appreciate over time. They are the sort of cars that if I do spend money on them, it just adds to their value and I have no need at this stage to part with any of them.
My 928 goes totally against any of this thinking. I have spent more money on this car than it will ever be worth, but I love this car (it'll be the last to go) and it's worth every cent I have spent on it and continue to spend on it.
The only time you will ever make money on a car is if you buy the right car at a bargain price at the right time, do the work yourself and hang onto it for many, many years
Ten years ago I needed to sell some cars to raise money, so I sold a Mercedes 600 that I was restoring and got my money back plus all that I had spent on it. I sold my 230SL Pagoda which I had bought three years previously and doubled my money.I also sold my Mercedes Fintail Station Wagon which I had found in a scrap yard four years previously, did nothing to it and got 100 times what I paid for it. None of these cars I should have sold, as the values have gone stratospheric since then.
All the other cars I own I bought because I like them and not as an investment, although I am conscious of their value and that they will appreciate over time. They are the sort of cars that if I do spend money on them, it just adds to their value and I have no need at this stage to part with any of them.
My 928 goes totally against any of this thinking. I have spent more money on this car than it will ever be worth, but I love this car (it'll be the last to go) and it's worth every cent I have spent on it and continue to spend on it.
The only time you will ever make money on a car is if you buy the right car at a bargain price at the right time, do the work yourself and hang onto it for many, many years
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Well according to Hagerty's valuations, the 928 has increased a lot in recent years:
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuati...Porsche-928-S4
If I could believe this, my S4 is actually worth a full restoration. I think I am about one nice paint-job and one nice interior re-do away from concours condition if I wanted to. So that would increase my value by over $20,000 according to these valuations. Not bad! That about covers the paint and interior I think.
On the other hand, if I had all the money in world I would surely have bought a 1988 Countach along with my 928 back in 2010. I literally wept when I read these numbers:
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuati...Quattrovalvole
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuati...Porsche-928-S4
If I could believe this, my S4 is actually worth a full restoration. I think I am about one nice paint-job and one nice interior re-do away from concours condition if I wanted to. So that would increase my value by over $20,000 according to these valuations. Not bad! That about covers the paint and interior I think.
On the other hand, if I had all the money in world I would surely have bought a 1988 Countach along with my 928 back in 2010. I literally wept when I read these numbers:
https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuati...Quattrovalvole
#15
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I just sold a vehicle, privately, where I "made" more than I paid for the vehicle. Owned it for 4 years and sold for about $3,300 more than I paid. I put 25k mi on the vehicle, as it was my driver, over those years.
Buy right and sell with a good ad. Condition didn't hurt, either. FWIW, dealer offered me 1/2 of what I sold it for, last time they saw it. I lol'd