Front wheel bearing?
10-15-2015, 01:39 PM
#31
Never check or change the engine oil. Let's see how long it goes before it gives up. This is fun![/QUOTE]
I once bought a 64 Lincoln (cornered like the Queeen Mary) that had been owned by a millionaire real estate developer. It had 40,000 mi on it. When I changed the oil it came out like glue. Obviously neither he nor the dealer had touched the drain plug. I had no problems with it for many miles until one day it started "making oil" . Traded it in.
I too, back when I was young and poor, replaced a bad outer bearing without popping the race, and in addition it was a used one from a junkyard. Worked fine on whatever junker I was driving at the time. A microscopic chip in a roller will create a terrible howl with no visible damage.
I once bought a 64 Lincoln (cornered like the Queeen Mary) that had been owned by a millionaire real estate developer. It had 40,000 mi on it. When I changed the oil it came out like glue. Obviously neither he nor the dealer had touched the drain plug. I had no problems with it for many miles until one day it started "making oil" . Traded it in.
I too, back when I was young and poor, replaced a bad outer bearing without popping the race, and in addition it was a used one from a junkyard. Worked fine on whatever junker I was driving at the time. A microscopic chip in a roller will create a terrible howl with no visible damage.
10-15-2015, 02:06 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
you missed the part of the downside of this "experiement"... remember the risk is a new bearing.... with engine oil.... dont get me started!
How about this one:
oh, you see the oil pressure warning light with mobil 1...." its the guage".. "oil is oil".. amsoil is snake oil... Ha haha.... yet, motors go boom on something that is proven to fail at high temps, yet folks use it and im the idiot?? really.... ill go through 10 dollar bearings while the rest go through $10k engines. no need to argue.... we all have our level of pain tolerance and pride!
I once bought a 64 Lincoln (cornered like the Queeen Mary) that had been owned by a millionaire real estate developer. It had 40,000 mi on it. When I changed the oil it came out like glue. Obviously neither he nor the dealer had touched the drain plug. I had no problems with it for many miles until one day it started "making oil" . Traded it in.
I too, back when I was young and poor, replaced a bad outer bearing without popping the race, and in addition it was a used one from a junkyard. Worked fine on whatever junker I was driving at the time. A microscopic chip in a roller will create a terrible howl with no visible damage.[/QUOTE]
How about this one:
oh, you see the oil pressure warning light with mobil 1...." its the guage".. "oil is oil".. amsoil is snake oil... Ha haha.... yet, motors go boom on something that is proven to fail at high temps, yet folks use it and im the idiot?? really.... ill go through 10 dollar bearings while the rest go through $10k engines. no need to argue.... we all have our level of pain tolerance and pride!
I too, back when I was young and poor, replaced a bad outer bearing without popping the race, and in addition it was a used one from a junkyard. Worked fine on whatever junker I was driving at the time. A microscopic chip in a roller will create a terrible howl with no visible damage.[/QUOTE]
10-15-2015, 06:06 PM
#33
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark, take a hard look at the bottom of the spindle whee the bearing rides. With the level of galling apparent on th inner race, I'll be amazed if the vibration didn't try to transfer to the spindle. The spindle is a carefully coarse finish, so that the bearing can have a slight interference with the peaks of the machining marks to help it stay in place. Polishing from the vibration is ok in -very- limited amounts. More than "barely noticeable" compromises the spindle's ability to support the bearing exactly at the point of maximum load, and further risks not being able to keep the cone concentic with the cup and the rest of the hub. Folks tend to adjust bearings on worn spindles a little tight as they try to get the pla out of a non-concentric assembly. Tight is worse for tapered bearings like this with grease lubrication, especially with the aluminum hub and steel spindle combination.
The discoloration and pitting on the rollers is typical of verheating. The rollers are hardened, harder than the races I believe. the signs on discoloration tell us that the rollers have 'lost their temper' so to speak, and managed to run against the outer race (the cup) with the metal and heat sacrified from the failure at the cone (inner) friction face. The cup is undoubtedly worn from the metal debris circulated by the rollers, and discolored by the heat and subsequent loss of temper/toughness.
Pictures of the lower surface of the spindle, where the bearing sits, will show you. Grab your micrometers and compare spindle dims at 90º and get a true quantitative value to mull over.
I've done my best to describe the cause and effect of the evidence you've shared, and many have shared their collective wisdom on the subject as well. You came asking for advice and you got it. Yet you are still in denial for some reason. In my spae time, I get to play with large rotating machinery and the causes and effects of vibration. I and many others here have accumulated far more race experience than you have. Lots of us managed to make it through decades of race car prep. Yet trying to share that knowledge and have it mean something to you is like beating a dead horse to death, trying to make it drink.
----
The discoloration and pitting on the rollers is typical of verheating. The rollers are hardened, harder than the races I believe. the signs on discoloration tell us that the rollers have 'lost their temper' so to speak, and managed to run against the outer race (the cup) with the metal and heat sacrified from the failure at the cone (inner) friction face. The cup is undoubtedly worn from the metal debris circulated by the rollers, and discolored by the heat and subsequent loss of temper/toughness.
Pictures of the lower surface of the spindle, where the bearing sits, will show you. Grab your micrometers and compare spindle dims at 90º and get a true quantitative value to mull over.
I've done my best to describe the cause and effect of the evidence you've shared, and many have shared their collective wisdom on the subject as well. You came asking for advice and you got it. Yet you are still in denial for some reason. In my spae time, I get to play with large rotating machinery and the causes and effects of vibration. I and many others here have accumulated far more race experience than you have. Lots of us managed to make it through decades of race car prep. Yet trying to share that knowledge and have it mean something to you is like beating a dead horse to death, trying to make it drink.
----
10-15-2015, 06:32 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Bob, love your tone and temperment. first of all, we are all friends here (some more than others) and i listen to all you say. if i challenge you , it might not be because i doubt you , its because i dont think you have all the the information. from what you have seen, i would expect the response so far. Much appreciated. look we are not saving the world here. its nice to pass on knoldgege with regards to these things with our cars. I have learned more hear than i provide... i admit that, but ive also taking what i have learned to have a PRETTY stellar reliabilty record, you have to admit. i dont make up the things i say.. i have my theories as well, just GB and others do. the proof is what i do has worked and i dont think its based on luck alone.
I also worked very close with bearing manufacturers for many years 10+ spent a week one year with TOYO at the bearing plant looking at designs to increase axial load capabilities for a bearing that wasnt designed for a current use. learned a lot about failure, the sorting process of ABEC1,2,3,4 etc. so, this is many years of looking at bearing failures in a professional capacity. I dont know it all, but i do speak the language and understand your points perfectly. I remember one set of failures due to large motors transported on trains and the bearings started out with small microscopic pits from the weight of the motor rotors and shock loads on the high speed bearings.
I also have a lot of experience in the racing front and my advice many tend not to listen to... its kind of the same things... things that season racers know, is kind of foreign to those just starting out. I listened very carefully when i started, and it helped accelerate my abilities. But those that try and do it themselves will take longer and may never get it. when i advice someone to stop sawing at the wheel and shufflesteering, i dont get angry with them, most of the time... as you dont, i try and point out the reasons for this being a performance inhibitor and an unsafe technique. we are all here to share experiences and help in most cases.
So, my theory is that the bearing wore out, started to disintegrate, had some debris that might have been contained in the inner race and the vibration was transferred to the spindle that we could hear and feel. because the forces were greater concentrated to the inner bearing race than outer, it took the brunt. Ill see the spindle shaft and do the measurements. ill look for the things you point out as far as wear points.
Ill see if i can get that race out ... if it looks good via pics, i might leave it in there as an experiement.
anyway, this is all good.. the reason i do the things i do, is that i prioritize.. sometimes i dont have the time to do it right and do it over.. .my clutch tOB is a great example of that 6 clutch jobs for the cost of that little c-clip and a new bearing! I know, im stubborn, but i learn along the way.
my engineering flow chart should help you understand my way of doing things... partiallly kidding!
I also worked very close with bearing manufacturers for many years 10+ spent a week one year with TOYO at the bearing plant looking at designs to increase axial load capabilities for a bearing that wasnt designed for a current use. learned a lot about failure, the sorting process of ABEC1,2,3,4 etc. so, this is many years of looking at bearing failures in a professional capacity. I dont know it all, but i do speak the language and understand your points perfectly. I remember one set of failures due to large motors transported on trains and the bearings started out with small microscopic pits from the weight of the motor rotors and shock loads on the high speed bearings.
I also have a lot of experience in the racing front and my advice many tend not to listen to... its kind of the same things... things that season racers know, is kind of foreign to those just starting out. I listened very carefully when i started, and it helped accelerate my abilities. But those that try and do it themselves will take longer and may never get it. when i advice someone to stop sawing at the wheel and shufflesteering, i dont get angry with them, most of the time... as you dont, i try and point out the reasons for this being a performance inhibitor and an unsafe technique.
we are all here to share experiences and help in most cases. So, my theory is that the bearing wore out, started to disintegrate, had some debris that might have been contained in the inner race and the vibration was transferred to the spindle that we could hear and feel. because the forces were greater concentrated to the inner bearing race than outer, it took the brunt. Ill see the spindle shaft and do the measurements. ill look for the things you point out as far as wear points.
Ill see if i can get that race out ... if it looks good via pics, i might leave it in there as an experiement.
anyway, this is all good.. the reason i do the things i do, is that i prioritize.. sometimes i dont have the time to do it right and do it over.. .my clutch tOB is a great example of that 6 clutch jobs for the cost of that little c-clip and a new bearing! I know, im stubborn, but i learn along the way.
my engineering flow chart should help you understand my way of doing things... partiallly kidding!
Mark, take a hard look at the bottom of the spindle whee the bearing rides. With the level of galling apparent on th inner race, I'll be amazed if the vibration didn't try to transfer to the spindle. The spindle is a carefully coarse finish, so that the bearing can have a slight interference with the peaks of the machining marks to help it stay in place. Polishing from the vibration is ok in -very- limited amounts. More than "barely noticeable" compromises the spindle's ability to support the bearing exactly at the point of maximum load, and further risks not being able to keep the cone concentic with the cup and the rest of the hub. Folks tend to adjust bearings on worn spindles a little tight as they try to get the pla out of a non-concentric assembly. Tight is worse for tapered bearings like this with grease lubrication, especially with the aluminum hub and steel spindle combination.
The discoloration and pitting on the rollers is typical of verheating. The rollers are hardened, harder than the races I believe. the signs on discoloration tell us that the rollers have 'lost their temper' so to speak, and managed to run against the outer race (the cup) with the metal and heat sacrified from the failure at the cone (inner) friction face. The cup is undoubtedly worn from the metal debris circulated by the rollers, and discolored by the heat and subsequent loss of temper/toughness.
Pictures of the lower surface of the spindle, where the bearing sits, will show you. Grab your micrometers and compare spindle dims at 90º and get a true quantitative value to mull over.
I've done my best to describe the cause and effect of the evidence you've shared, and many have shared their collective wisdom on the subject as well. You came asking for advice and you got it. Yet you are still in denial for some reason. In my spae time, I get to play with large rotating machinery and the causes and effects of vibration. I and many others here have accumulated far more race experience than you have. Lots of us managed to make it through decades of race car prep. Yet trying to share that knowledge and have it mean something to you is like beating a dead horse to death, trying to make it drink.
----
The discoloration and pitting on the rollers is typical of verheating. The rollers are hardened, harder than the races I believe. the signs on discoloration tell us that the rollers have 'lost their temper' so to speak, and managed to run against the outer race (the cup) with the metal and heat sacrified from the failure at the cone (inner) friction face. The cup is undoubtedly worn from the metal debris circulated by the rollers, and discolored by the heat and subsequent loss of temper/toughness.
Pictures of the lower surface of the spindle, where the bearing sits, will show you. Grab your micrometers and compare spindle dims at 90º and get a true quantitative value to mull over.
I've done my best to describe the cause and effect of the evidence you've shared, and many have shared their collective wisdom on the subject as well. You came asking for advice and you got it. Yet you are still in denial for some reason. In my spae time, I get to play with large rotating machinery and the causes and effects of vibration. I and many others here have accumulated far more race experience than you have. Lots of us managed to make it through decades of race car prep. Yet trying to share that knowledge and have it mean something to you is like beating a dead horse to death, trying to make it drink.
----
10-15-2015, 06:39 PM
#35
Chronic Tool Dropper
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But you insist on learning the hard way, based only on your own very limited experience and theories. Consider that education is a process by which you have the opportunity to learn from others' painful 'experience' without having to endure it first-hand.
10-15-2015, 07:34 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
. Just because many jump on the band wagon, doesnt make it true. i wouldnt say experience of 20 years of racing/fixing the 928 is limited, especially at the level ive raced the car and the things I've fixed at the track and at my home shop. However, i do respect the specialties of those on the list that have done certain tasks far more than i have. again, i have been HUGELY grateful by those experiences and learned, again, more than i ever can contribute. However, in this case, ive had to change the bearing with out the race, twice an didnt have any issues for a very long time in both cases. (never had the car long enough to see a failure). I do know what to look for, generally, but am a lot more leery now to do it again. thanks to your detailed response. again, i dont have the tools around to do the job and i don't want to be butchering the race pounding it in the hub and create a certain disaster for the bearing.
so i if the race is not marred at all, and the spindle looks good with a nice easy interference fit that looks good and doesn't have any flat spots or marred areas,
i might have a tendency to leave it and see. However, if i can get that bearing race out on both sides and install them with no chance of damaging the races, ill do it.
thanks!
10-15-2015, 07:45 PM
#37
Former Sponsor
My dad is flipping over in his grave, right now, just hearing this.
And he grew up in the depression!
There's also a huge difference between the different manufacturers of bearings. When I was doing lots of track preparation for 911s, 944s, and 928s, there were only two different brands of bearings I could find that would last with aggressive drivers on slicks.
Kibort drives like your grandma, so he should be fine with whatever junk he throws together.
10-15-2015, 09:09 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
+1.
My dad is flipping over in his grave, right now, just hearing this.
And he grew up in the depression!
There's also a huge difference between the different manufacturers of bearings. When I was doing lots of track preparation for 911s, 944s, and 928s, there were only two different brands of bearings I could find that would last with aggressive drivers on slicks.
Kibort drives like your grandma, so he should be fine with whatever junk he throws together.
My dad is flipping over in his grave, right now, just hearing this.
And he grew up in the depression!
There's also a huge difference between the different manufacturers of bearings. When I was doing lots of track preparation for 911s, 944s, and 928s, there were only two different brands of bearings I could find that would last with aggressive drivers on slicks.
Kibort drives like your grandma, so he should be fine with whatever junk he throws together.
running times that are 4 seconds faster than the car you built for the best driver you know.. 1:36 my time to 1:40.1... "his time" (with 50 more hp, and all your bolts ons!) . hmmm what does that say about your grandma??
times dont lie Greg! lots of races, lots of comparisons.....
I bet pobst felt a little silly with me only tailing him by 1 second with the same Hp/weight and a car that cost $18k to build vs his $80K GS grand am BMWM3.
I dont want to confuse you with the facts though. lets just say your grandma is not slow.
aggressive drivers on slicks... ah.. you only know 2... oh yeah, 3..
By the way Greg.... that's a good point and its why i bought two sets of the bearings so that the races were near identical they are usually made in a set, but same manufacturer is a good bet to the near the same size.
Im using SKF bearings.
you also say conti belt stretches like a rubber band
you say a lot of stuff!
Lets get this competition going for willow springs!!!!!!
watch carefully greg!
10-15-2015, 09:55 PM
#39
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Umh, stay on focus. This has nothing to do with who went fastest on what used tires on a day when you have no records of other critical factors. Before you get to go out and try to liove up to the driving bravado, you need to have wheels under the car.
Next time you tech your car for an event, share the contents of this thread with the inspector, including your pictures and all the commentary. See if the tech inspector laughs it all off the way you seem to.
------
Next time you tech your car for an event, share the contents of this thread with the inspector, including your pictures and all the commentary. See if the tech inspector laughs it all off the way you seem to.
------
10-16-2015, 02:00 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Umh, stay on focus. This has nothing to do with who went fastest on what used tires on a day when you have no records of other critical factors. Before you get to go out and try to liove up to the driving bravado, you need to have wheels under the car.
Next time you tech your car for an event, share the contents of this thread with the inspector, including your pictures and all the commentary. See if the tech inspector laughs it all off the way you seem to.
------
Next time you tech your car for an event, share the contents of this thread with the inspector, including your pictures and all the commentary. See if the tech inspector laughs it all off the way you seem to.
------
all I was saying to greg, is if im so slow, Mark A is too, because on those days, we have the times around the track. this has NOTHING to do with driving, but everything about how much forces are on the car. if I can make it around the same circuit at 4 seconds faster, the car goes through more g forces.... regardless of the grip being different or a turn being more banked, etc. between the two dates run.. it is fact, the time is fact, and the forces are greater with the lower time. there is no getting around that. Now, do I think driver is a part of that....sure.. In the rain race, absolutely..... but in the dry on the same day , the facts remain, I ran 1:36.1 vs Andersons 1:33.7 with me running DOTs and having 200less HP. You do the math. Again, its about forces on the car.. And the point is to Greg Brown, I'm putting AT LEAST the same forces on the car as anyone.
The funny thing about the racing comparisons is this. (and mark A and I laugh about this all the time. ) there is no shortage of good drivers out there. I run month after month, year after year with guys that get up to speed fast, in similar cars and I run nose to tail for hours . the difference is not who can run the fastest lap time, its the decisions made during the race. now, this is ONLY when you get to that level. This takes a few years and a lot of track time... But after that, its not about the lap time or car control.... that's a given... its about strategy and decision making. this when Mark and I jump in the same car, like the Lemons car for example, we run near the same time . or in the rain.... we run the same time.
So, back on track... the wheels coming off tomorrow and ill take some pics... my bet is that the inner race looks fine and the spindle will be un-marred. if I can get those races off , ill change them. However, it would be interesting to see if left them, how long they would last..... any guesses?
10-16-2015, 02:14 PM
#41
Drifting
So the gist of this 3 page TL;DR thread is that Kibort needs to change a wheel bearing but he's not going to change the bearing races? Aren't the S4 hubs notched on the inside to provide access to the races so they can be driven out with a hammer and punch in about 2 minutes? My '85 has notched hubs for this reason. I know the really early cars didn't have them.
And don't all new wheel bearings come with cups/races?
It's experimenting when there's potential for significant payoff by taking a risk. It's called laziness when you take a risk because you don't want to do 2 minutes of extra work.
And don't all new wheel bearings come with cups/races?
It's experimenting when there's potential for significant payoff by taking a risk. It's called laziness when you take a risk because you don't want to do 2 minutes of extra work.
10-16-2015, 02:42 PM
#42
Former Sponsor
Just leave him alone and forget it.....he's a "Darwin Award" candidate, searching for the proper time/situation.
10-16-2015, 04:37 PM
#43
Chronic Tool Dropper
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the tech guys know my car well. Its record speaks for its self by virtue of the times. that day, is known... the times are in the record books we were all on slicks, it was raining. so what critical factors are you looking at?
all I was saying to greg, is if im so slow, Mark A is too, because on those days, we have the times around the track. this has NOTHING to do with driving, but everything about how much forces are on the car. if I can make it around the same circuit at 4 seconds faster, the car goes through more g forces.... regardless of the grip being different or a turn being more banked, etc. between the two dates run.. it is fact, the time is fact, and the forces are greater with the lower time. there is no getting around that. Now, do I think driver is a part of that....sure.. In the rain race, absolutely..... but in the dry on the same day , the facts remain, I ran 1:36.1 vs Andersons 1:33.7 with me running DOTs and having 200less HP. You do the math. Again, its about forces on the car.. And the point is to Greg Brown, I'm putting AT LEAST the same forces on the car as anyone.
The funny thing about the racing comparisons is this. (and mark A and I laugh about this all the time. ) there is no shortage of good drivers out there. I run month after month, year after year with guys that get up to speed fast, in similar cars and I run nose to tail for hours . the difference is not who can run the fastest lap time, its the decisions made during the race. now, this is ONLY when you get to that level. This takes a few years and a lot of track time... But after that, its not about the lap time or car control.... that's a given... its about strategy and decision making. this when Mark and I jump in the same car, like the Lemons car for example, we run near the same time . or in the rain.... we run the same time.
So, back on track... the wheels coming off tomorrow and ill take some pics... my bet is that the inner race looks fine and the spindle will be un-marred. if I can get those races off , ill change them. However, it would be interesting to see if left them, how long they would last..... any guesses?
all I was saying to greg, is if im so slow, Mark A is too, because on those days, we have the times around the track. this has NOTHING to do with driving, but everything about how much forces are on the car. if I can make it around the same circuit at 4 seconds faster, the car goes through more g forces.... regardless of the grip being different or a turn being more banked, etc. between the two dates run.. it is fact, the time is fact, and the forces are greater with the lower time. there is no getting around that. Now, do I think driver is a part of that....sure.. In the rain race, absolutely..... but in the dry on the same day , the facts remain, I ran 1:36.1 vs Andersons 1:33.7 with me running DOTs and having 200less HP. You do the math. Again, its about forces on the car.. And the point is to Greg Brown, I'm putting AT LEAST the same forces on the car as anyone.
The funny thing about the racing comparisons is this. (and mark A and I laugh about this all the time. ) there is no shortage of good drivers out there. I run month after month, year after year with guys that get up to speed fast, in similar cars and I run nose to tail for hours . the difference is not who can run the fastest lap time, its the decisions made during the race. now, this is ONLY when you get to that level. This takes a few years and a lot of track time... But after that, its not about the lap time or car control.... that's a given... its about strategy and decision making. this when Mark and I jump in the same car, like the Lemons car for example, we run near the same time . or in the rain.... we run the same time.
So, back on track... the wheels coming off tomorrow and ill take some pics... my bet is that the inner race looks fine and the spindle will be un-marred. if I can get those races off , ill change them. However, it would be interesting to see if left them, how long they would last..... any guesses?
This isn't about who's faster or when they were faster or where they are faster. It's about inspecting known wear parts and the proper way to recover from your failure. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
Start another thread titled "How do I go so fast with such purposefully poor preparation? It's a tribute to the strength of the car!" and share your secrets there.
Meanwhile... Standing by for the cleaned hub pics with the old cups in place.
"If I can get those races off..." is a no-brainer. Reread my earlier post about heating the hub. You'll still need to drive the races out with a punch and a small hammer, but the heat will make that a lot easier than just pounding the crap out of them cold.
"However, it would be interesting to see if left them, how long they would last..... any guesses?" All the way to the scrap bucket. Fair warning: They bounce pretty well if you miss. But why would you even risk leaving them?
10-16-2015, 04:42 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
OK Bob!!!!! yes, your right....need.... to.... focus!! (but the challenge is so tempting! )
ok, pull them off, heat them and pound them out.
im really worried about them going back in. my reluctance is that i might do more damage to the race putting them in, then re-using visibly good old bearings,
thanks..
Mark
) ok, pull them off, heat them and pound them out.
im really worried about them going back in. my reluctance is that i might do more damage to the race putting them in, then re-using visibly good old bearings,
thanks..
Mark
Mark, you've, um, lost your bearings again. F - O - C - U - S!!!
This isn't about who's faster or when they were faster or where they are faster. It's about inspecting known wear parts and the proper way to recover from your failure. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
Start another thread titled "How do I go so fast with such purposefully poor preparation? It's a tribute to the strength of the car!" and share your secrets there.
Meanwhile... Standing by for the cleaned hub pics with the old cups in place.
"If I can get those races off..." is a no-brainer. Reread my earlier post about heating the hub. You'll still need to drive the races out with a punch and a small hammer, but the heat will make that a lot easier than just pounding the crap out of them cold.
This isn't about who's faster or when they were faster or where they are faster. It's about inspecting known wear parts and the proper way to recover from your failure. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
Start another thread titled "How do I go so fast with such purposefully poor preparation? It's a tribute to the strength of the car!" and share your secrets there.
Meanwhile... Standing by for the cleaned hub pics with the old cups in place.
"If I can get those races off..." is a no-brainer. Reread my earlier post about heating the hub. You'll still need to drive the races out with a punch and a small hammer, but the heat will make that a lot easier than just pounding the crap out of them cold.