Front wheel bearing?
09-21-2015, 07:34 PM
#1
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Front wheel bearing?
i was on the last lap of the race at sears, which just punishes the car at that track, and heard a howling noise. making S turns before pit out, i noticed the noise went away while turning left, making it certain that it was a driver side wheel bearing. now, how do i tell if its front or back. i think one test i dint do, was a hard right turn with big brakes to unload the left rear a little, to narrow it down to be the fronts.. so, because it only makes noise loaded, it feels fine on the jack stands. any tests to figure out if i have a rear bearing problem?
i guess i could just change out the front bearings and see if that changes anything. i do have some spare parts and the rear bearings waiting for their moment, so i can get longer bolt studs and get rid of those dangerous studded spacers in the rear!! i just hate that rear bearing change job!
i guess i could just change out the front bearings and see if that changes anything. i do have some spare parts and the rear bearings waiting for their moment, so i can get longer bolt studs and get rid of those dangerous studded spacers in the rear!! i just hate that rear bearing change job!
09-21-2015, 09:52 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
If its a bearing issue you should feel / hear some noise from it , with the tire off the ground ,spinning it . could it be the front brake dust shield touching the rotor ,or a rock or other debris stuck between the rotor/shield ?
09-21-2015, 10:51 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
While groaning, lite movements in the steering wheel should change it..if its a front.
Should have a fair amount of play, if bearing too, fronts easier to check than rears at this point.
If it's a rear, I still have Bills B90 and a Jebus Torque Wrench (600FtLb) if you wanna get together and do this.
..but I wont be back from be invitation to the White House until Friday, and then I'll be at sears all weekend working. I can do a week night next week?
Should have a fair amount of play, if bearing too, fronts easier to check than rears at this point.
If it's a rear, I still have Bills B90 and a Jebus Torque Wrench (600FtLb) if you wanna get together and do this.
..but I wont be back from be invitation to the White House until Friday, and then I'll be at sears all weekend working. I can do a week night next week?
09-22-2015, 08:59 AM
#4
Supercharged
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Jack up the front, grab the wheel at 12 and 6. If there is noticeable play, then the bearing is toast. Change it before you kill the spindle.
Rear bearings are a PITA to replace, so change the front (likely the issue) and if still persistent, then do the rear. That rear bearing is super beefy, and tends to be a constant hummmm unlike the front that changes when turning.
Rear bearings are a PITA to replace, so change the front (likely the issue) and if still persistent, then do the rear. That rear bearing is super beefy, and tends to be a constant hummmm unlike the front that changes when turning.
09-22-2015, 08:08 PM
#5
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Jack up the front, grab the wheel at 12 and 6. If there is noticeable play, then the bearing is toast. Change it before you kill the spindle.
Rear bearings are a PITA to replace, so change the front (likely the issue) and if still persistent, then do the rear. That rear bearing is super beefy, and tends to be a constant hummmm unlike the front that changes when turning.
Rear bearings are a PITA to replace, so change the front (likely the issue) and if still persistent, then do the rear. That rear bearing is super beefy, and tends to be a constant hummmm unlike the front that changes when turning.
While groaning, lite movements in the steering wheel should change it..if its a front.
Should have a fair amount of play, if bearing too, fronts easier to check than rears at this point.
If it's a rear, I still have Bills B90 and a Jebus Torque Wrench (600FtLb) if you wanna get together and do this.
..but I wont be back from be invitation to the White House until Friday, and then I'll be at sears all weekend working. I can do a week night next week?
Should have a fair amount of play, if bearing too, fronts easier to check than rears at this point.
If it's a rear, I still have Bills B90 and a Jebus Torque Wrench (600FtLb) if you wanna get together and do this.
..but I wont be back from be invitation to the White House until Friday, and then I'll be at sears all weekend working. I can do a week night next week?
yes, if its the rear.... thats right, we need that big GUY wrench! i used to borrow the CT automotive shop wrench, but dont think i can borrow tools anymore from them. i used to go there , crack it there and then drive it home to pull apart. (did one side before) .
Ill pull that front off and change it out and see if anything changes... '
thanks!
Mk
09-22-2015, 08:10 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
thanks!
10-12-2015, 03:54 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Yep, driver side front wheel bearing!
it wasnt until i took off the rotor and was able to spin the hub by hand , that i could feel the vibration. (a little crunchie)
so, pulled out the outer bearing and it felt fine, spun what was left on the inside bearing and , YEP, that was it. races are fine, bearing bad. changed them both to two new bearings, packed them with high temp grease and its smooth as silk.
Ok! ready for Willow springs!! (and thunderhill for the grand finalie this month)
thanks for the ideas folks.... glad its not the rear bearings! actually, i replaced the driver side, as this transaxle system has been following me along since the begininng with the holbert car!
Mk
it wasnt until i took off the rotor and was able to spin the hub by hand , that i could feel the vibration. (a little crunchie)
so, pulled out the outer bearing and it felt fine, spun what was left on the inside bearing and , YEP, that was it. races are fine, bearing bad. changed them both to two new bearings, packed them with high temp grease and its smooth as silk.
Ok! ready for Willow springs!! (and thunderhill for the grand finalie this month)
thanks for the ideas folks.... glad its not the rear bearings! actually, i replaced the driver side, as this transaxle system has been following me along since the begininng with the holbert car!
Mk
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10-12-2015, 07:29 PM
#8
Chronic Tool Dropper
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FWIW, and probably doesn't apply so much now, but...
If I have the car on stands, calipers off, ready to give the front bearings the rock-and-roll noise tests, I do both. Then if one side needs service, both sides get it. Logic suggests that one side of the car sees pretty much the same number of revolutions as the other side. So unless there was a failure due to bearing materials fault or installer mess-up, the not-quite-yet-noisy side is just not quite yet noisy. With all the tools out, hands slimy from packing a couple bearings, why not do the 'other' two bearings at the same time?
And in the "often missed" category of front wheel bearings, when the inner bearing get noisy enough to hear, the vibration transmitted from the bearing causes the inner bearing's inner race to rub on the spindle surface. Since the weight puts the load on the bottom of the spindle, you'll see wear there where the innner race normally sits. The spindle comes with a bit of a machined surface where the bearings sit, and that surface gets polished by the vibrating bearing. Bad news is that there's no good recovery from loss of spindle metal; the only real solution is spindle replacement. Sometimes weare tempted to just snug the spindle nut a little more to take up the clearance, but that race isn't perfectly centered anymore. The combination of 'too snug' and 'not centered anymore' conspire to add a little heat as you drive, expanding the aluminum hub faster than the steel spindle grows. That adds more 'too snug' to the mix and will ultimately spin or crash the inner bearing.
Catch the other one now before it eats the spindle. While the car is raised for that, slip the other hub back out so you can clean and carefully inspect the spindle. If it's polished enough to notice, try slipping the new dry bearing over the spindle, wobbling it slightly where it usually sits. If the inner sleeve isn't snug or at least zero clearance, start your search now for spindle(s) as needed.
If I have the car on stands, calipers off, ready to give the front bearings the rock-and-roll noise tests, I do both. Then if one side needs service, both sides get it. Logic suggests that one side of the car sees pretty much the same number of revolutions as the other side. So unless there was a failure due to bearing materials fault or installer mess-up, the not-quite-yet-noisy side is just not quite yet noisy. With all the tools out, hands slimy from packing a couple bearings, why not do the 'other' two bearings at the same time?
And in the "often missed" category of front wheel bearings, when the inner bearing get noisy enough to hear, the vibration transmitted from the bearing causes the inner bearing's inner race to rub on the spindle surface. Since the weight puts the load on the bottom of the spindle, you'll see wear there where the innner race normally sits. The spindle comes with a bit of a machined surface where the bearings sit, and that surface gets polished by the vibrating bearing. Bad news is that there's no good recovery from loss of spindle metal; the only real solution is spindle replacement. Sometimes weare tempted to just snug the spindle nut a little more to take up the clearance, but that race isn't perfectly centered anymore. The combination of 'too snug' and 'not centered anymore' conspire to add a little heat as you drive, expanding the aluminum hub faster than the steel spindle grows. That adds more 'too snug' to the mix and will ultimately spin or crash the inner bearing.
Catch the other one now before it eats the spindle. While the car is raised for that, slip the other hub back out so you can clean and carefully inspect the spindle. If it's polished enough to notice, try slipping the new dry bearing over the spindle, wobbling it slightly where it usually sits. If the inner sleeve isn't snug or at least zero clearance, start your search now for spindle(s) as needed.
10-13-2015, 02:55 AM
#10
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Thread Starter
FWIW, and probably doesn't apply so much now, but...
If I have the car on stands, calipers off, ready to give the front bearings the rock-and-roll noise tests, I do both. Then if one side needs service, both sides get it. Logic suggests that one side of the car sees pretty much the same number of revolutions as the other side. So unless there was a failure due to bearing materials fault or installer mess-up, the not-quite-yet-noisy side is just not quite yet noisy. With all the tools out, hands slimy from packing a couple bearings, why not do the 'other' two bearings at the same time?
And in the "often missed" category of front wheel bearings, when the inner bearing get noisy enough to hear, the vibration transmitted from the bearing causes the inner bearing's inner race to rub on the spindle surface. Since the weight puts the load on the bottom of the spindle, you'll see wear there where the innner race normally sits. The spindle comes with a bit of a machined surface where the bearings sit, and that surface gets polished by the vibrating bearing. Bad news is that there's no good recovery from loss of spindle metal; the only real solution is spindle replacement. Sometimes weare tempted to just snug the spindle nut a little more to take up the clearance, but that race isn't perfectly centered anymore. The combination of 'too snug' and 'not centered anymore' conspire to add a little heat as you drive, expanding the aluminum hub faster than the steel spindle grows. That adds more 'too snug' to the mix and will ultimately spin or crash the inner bearing.
Catch the other one now before it eats the spindle. While the car is raised for that, slip the other hub back out so you can clean and carefully inspect the spindle. If it's polished enough to notice, try slipping the new dry bearing over the spindle, wobbling it slightly where it usually sits. If the inner sleeve isn't snug or at least zero clearance, start your search now for spindle(s) as needed.
If I have the car on stands, calipers off, ready to give the front bearings the rock-and-roll noise tests, I do both. Then if one side needs service, both sides get it. Logic suggests that one side of the car sees pretty much the same number of revolutions as the other side. So unless there was a failure due to bearing materials fault or installer mess-up, the not-quite-yet-noisy side is just not quite yet noisy. With all the tools out, hands slimy from packing a couple bearings, why not do the 'other' two bearings at the same time?
And in the "often missed" category of front wheel bearings, when the inner bearing get noisy enough to hear, the vibration transmitted from the bearing causes the inner bearing's inner race to rub on the spindle surface. Since the weight puts the load on the bottom of the spindle, you'll see wear there where the innner race normally sits. The spindle comes with a bit of a machined surface where the bearings sit, and that surface gets polished by the vibrating bearing. Bad news is that there's no good recovery from loss of spindle metal; the only real solution is spindle replacement. Sometimes weare tempted to just snug the spindle nut a little more to take up the clearance, but that race isn't perfectly centered anymore. The combination of 'too snug' and 'not centered anymore' conspire to add a little heat as you drive, expanding the aluminum hub faster than the steel spindle grows. That adds more 'too snug' to the mix and will ultimately spin or crash the inner bearing.
Catch the other one now before it eats the spindle. While the car is raised for that, slip the other hub back out so you can clean and carefully inspect the spindle. If it's polished enough to notice, try slipping the new dry bearing over the spindle, wobbling it slightly where it usually sits. If the inner sleeve isn't snug or at least zero clearance, start your search now for spindle(s) as needed.
as far as, while its "up in the air".. in my garage it usually one side at a time.
I know its good idea to do both, but right then i didnt have the time to do both. sure, its probably time for the other side too. probably wise to change it out.
10-13-2015, 02:58 AM
#11
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Thread Starter
actually, i left them in there. i thought i would do more damage trying to pound out the races and then pound in the new races back in without a press. I forgot how i did the holbert car . I know on the 84 i just did the bearings and it lasted for a real long time . i guess it just matters how much damage has been done to the original races.
10-13-2015, 11:15 AM
#12
Captain Obvious
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actually, i left them in there. i thought i would do more damage trying to pound out the races and then pound in the new races back in without a press. I forgot how i did the holbert car . I know on the 84 i just did the bearings and it lasted for a real long time . i guess it just matters how much damage has been done to the original races.
10-13-2015, 12:00 PM
#13
Chronic Tool Dropper
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Mark--
For these bearing races in the aluminum hub, that $5 garage sale toaster-oven is your friend. Or cruise by the local Big Lots or WalMart and get a new one for $20. Heat the cleaned and degreased hub assy to 300º or so, and the steel races will come out quite easily. While the hub is heating, the new races are in the freezer so they get colder and a little smaller. They will all but fall in to place. Use appropriate gloves when handling the heated hub, obviously, and let it cool naturally rather than throwing it in a bucket of water.
---
Imo makes a good call. I would never consider just dropping new rollers and cones into the old cups (outer races). Maybe in an emergency side-of-the-road repair when I didn't have tools with me, just enough to get to somewhere to do it right.
Changing the outer races is critical to bearing life. The cone and rollers you took out were blued and pocked from the heat and the mechanical punishment. The outer race is similarly blued and galled, with what looks like a blue wear stripe inside. There's just no way that the new bearing will survive long with the damaged cups in the hub.
For these bearing races in the aluminum hub, that $5 garage sale toaster-oven is your friend. Or cruise by the local Big Lots or WalMart and get a new one for $20. Heat the cleaned and degreased hub assy to 300º or so, and the steel races will come out quite easily. While the hub is heating, the new races are in the freezer so they get colder and a little smaller. They will all but fall in to place. Use appropriate gloves when handling the heated hub, obviously, and let it cool naturally rather than throwing it in a bucket of water.
---
Imo makes a good call. I would never consider just dropping new rollers and cones into the old cups (outer races). Maybe in an emergency side-of-the-road repair when I didn't have tools with me, just enough to get to somewhere to do it right.
Changing the outer races is critical to bearing life. The cone and rollers you took out were blued and pocked from the heat and the mechanical punishment. The outer race is similarly blued and galled, with what looks like a blue wear stripe inside. There's just no way that the new bearing will survive long with the damaged cups in the hub.
10-13-2015, 12:36 PM
#14
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Thread Starter
the problem with luck i guess, is that it can sway you to push it! I did this at the track when i had a realy noisy one many years ago.. that bearing never had an issue. so, im trying it again. the race didnt look bad, so off we went. heck, whats the worst that can happen... ill have to buy the bearings again?? i dont think they were too expensive and i didnt have access to a press.
10-13-2015, 12:43 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Mark--
For these bearing races in the aluminum hub, that $5 garage sale toaster-oven is your friend. Or cruise by the local Big Lots or WalMart and get a new one for $20. Heat the cleaned and degreased hub assy to 300º or so, and the steel races will come out quite easily. While the hub is heating, the new races are in the freezer so they get colder and a little smaller. They will all but fall in to place. Use appropriate gloves when handling the heated hub, obviously, and let it cool naturally rather than throwing it in a bucket of water.
---
Imo makes a good call. I would never consider just dropping new rollers and cones into the old cups (outer races). Maybe in an emergency side-of-the-road repair when I didn't have tools with me, just enough to get to somewhere to do it right.
Changing the outer races is critical to bearing life. The cone and rollers you took out were blued and pocked from the heat and the mechanical punishment. The outer race is similarly blued and galled, with what looks like a blue wear stripe inside. There's just no way that the new bearing will survive long with the damaged cups in the hub.
For these bearing races in the aluminum hub, that $5 garage sale toaster-oven is your friend. Or cruise by the local Big Lots or WalMart and get a new one for $20. Heat the cleaned and degreased hub assy to 300º or so, and the steel races will come out quite easily. While the hub is heating, the new races are in the freezer so they get colder and a little smaller. They will all but fall in to place. Use appropriate gloves when handling the heated hub, obviously, and let it cool naturally rather than throwing it in a bucket of water.
---
Imo makes a good call. I would never consider just dropping new rollers and cones into the old cups (outer races). Maybe in an emergency side-of-the-road repair when I didn't have tools with me, just enough to get to somewhere to do it right.
Changing the outer races is critical to bearing life. The cone and rollers you took out were blued and pocked from the heat and the mechanical punishment. The outer race is similarly blued and galled, with what looks like a blue wear stripe inside. There's just no way that the new bearing will survive long with the damaged cups in the hub.
since the races looked good. (no blueing or visual issues), i put the new bearings on. Lets see how long it lasts. I did do the oven trick on the rears , but that was a project with all the tools needed. but the fronts, seem to be a little simpler and cheaper. ill post a close up of the old crunchy bearing, and see if you see anything obvious.
good advice though... illl buy another set and keep it in the bag. It didnt take too long, so i might even re-do it before thunderhill.
I also get the problem. you set the bearing tightness and the wheel still is loose, so you tighten it some more and you can barely move the washer with a screwdriver and then its ok.. problem is the bearing is under more pressure than it should be and it fails prematurely. the spindle shaft looked good, but i probably didnt look closely enough... from your advice, i would have if i had that idea before hand. thx