911 v. 928: Let's Call It, DE.
09-11-2015, 11:28 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
911 v. 928: Let's Call It, DE.
I had the chance last week to go driving with a friend of mine in the back roads of Missouri wine country.
The area is just crazy with hills and turns.
The plan was to blow off our jobs and meet in the morning and tear it up for awhile in our own cars. Then, to make it interesting... we switched cars. Nic has never driven a 928 and I have never been in a 911.
I feel like the 86.5 is finally well sorted, and I was ready for some real action so to speak. My buddy is Nic Georgieff, a great guy and long standing Porsche lover. He has a modified (or as Nic would say... massaged) '95 C4. So I believe it has been bored out, with performance suspension and aftermarket racing clutch. But I figure it's still fair, the 928 is modified as well.
So gentlemen, we also have the 928 vs. 911 story going on in the background.
It was a hot and dry, late summer morning. Both cars were black and mean and running great. I have no pics: unfortunately, I was trying not to kill myself most of the day.
This is the catch: Nic is also a national PCA instructor.
So we've got a pro versus a veterinarian who has watched a couple of you tube clips.
We pick one of Nic's favorite runs. I'm chasing, and he is letting me set the pace from behind.
Right away, I can tell that I can hang without effort on the straights. But, it's also obvious that the C4 is a hell of a lot more nimble.
I can't tell if it's his car or his skill, or both, but he's able to almost shoot sideways in turns.
After a little while a light bulb goes off, and I remember people talking about "lines". Then I start setting up like he does, and things got somewhat easier. I started enjoying it for real and I did my best to channel Mark Anderson at Willow Springs.
We are pushing it pretty hard. Probably not for Nic, but I'm soaked in sweat and my fingers are dug into the wheel.
After I was briefly airborne on a right turn with a drop off, I'm thinking about the Denis Jenkinson quote that you would have to be an "unmitigated idiot" to wreck a 928 in decent weather, and then decide that if Nic hits his brakes...there's going to be a damn good reason coming at you fast.
The rest of the run felt good. I remember almost hitting a tractor and I unfortunately smoked a turtle on a turn. It was kind of like a little explosion of red mist: there was no time for him to worry, or me to break the line I was on.
I gotta say when we switched out cars, I enjoyed the hell out of the 911. Stable platform with AWD, none of that famous over-steer those boys talk about. It jumped forward out of each shift and super tight.
When we pulled over to compare notes: My first comment is "I'll take it."
Nic's first comment while laughing is "are they all this loud?"
I pressed him on his impression because, frankly, I'm always curious what the air-coolers think of our cars.
He compared it to a heavy metal, almost American iron feel of power, but with better stability. He loved the snippy and clean shifts, and was very impressed with the overall "grunt" it has.
Now here is the interesting part: Now that he has driven both cars, he says he can't believe that one was meant to replace the other. You would have to know Nic, but this is not a critique -- just a simple fact. They are both unique Porsche, but very different platforms.
Apples and oranges indeed.
The area is just crazy with hills and turns.
The plan was to blow off our jobs and meet in the morning and tear it up for awhile in our own cars. Then, to make it interesting... we switched cars. Nic has never driven a 928 and I have never been in a 911.
I feel like the 86.5 is finally well sorted, and I was ready for some real action so to speak. My buddy is Nic Georgieff, a great guy and long standing Porsche lover. He has a modified (or as Nic would say... massaged) '95 C4. So I believe it has been bored out, with performance suspension and aftermarket racing clutch. But I figure it's still fair, the 928 is modified as well.
So gentlemen, we also have the 928 vs. 911 story going on in the background.
It was a hot and dry, late summer morning. Both cars were black and mean and running great. I have no pics: unfortunately, I was trying not to kill myself most of the day.
This is the catch: Nic is also a national PCA instructor.
So we've got a pro versus a veterinarian who has watched a couple of you tube clips.
We pick one of Nic's favorite runs. I'm chasing, and he is letting me set the pace from behind.
Right away, I can tell that I can hang without effort on the straights. But, it's also obvious that the C4 is a hell of a lot more nimble.
I can't tell if it's his car or his skill, or both, but he's able to almost shoot sideways in turns.
After a little while a light bulb goes off, and I remember people talking about "lines". Then I start setting up like he does, and things got somewhat easier. I started enjoying it for real and I did my best to channel Mark Anderson at Willow Springs.
We are pushing it pretty hard. Probably not for Nic, but I'm soaked in sweat and my fingers are dug into the wheel.
After I was briefly airborne on a right turn with a drop off, I'm thinking about the Denis Jenkinson quote that you would have to be an "unmitigated idiot" to wreck a 928 in decent weather, and then decide that if Nic hits his brakes...there's going to be a damn good reason coming at you fast.
The rest of the run felt good. I remember almost hitting a tractor and I unfortunately smoked a turtle on a turn. It was kind of like a little explosion of red mist: there was no time for him to worry, or me to break the line I was on.
I gotta say when we switched out cars, I enjoyed the hell out of the 911. Stable platform with AWD, none of that famous over-steer those boys talk about. It jumped forward out of each shift and super tight.
When we pulled over to compare notes: My first comment is "I'll take it."
Nic's first comment while laughing is "are they all this loud?"
I pressed him on his impression because, frankly, I'm always curious what the air-coolers think of our cars.
He compared it to a heavy metal, almost American iron feel of power, but with better stability. He loved the snippy and clean shifts, and was very impressed with the overall "grunt" it has.
Now here is the interesting part: Now that he has driven both cars, he says he can't believe that one was meant to replace the other. You would have to know Nic, but this is not a critique -- just a simple fact. They are both unique Porsche, but very different platforms.
Apples and oranges indeed.
Last edited by Crumpler; 09-11-2015 at 07:15 PM.
09-11-2015, 01:21 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
928 Development
Funny you should bring up the subject of replacement (928 for 911). I just finished reading this web post, and I thought it was very telling as to the confusion around the replacement theory. Interesting read.
https://sites.google.com/site/9shark28/development
https://sites.google.com/site/9shark28/development
09-11-2015, 06:39 PM
#5
Race Car
Nice, frank account, nice to read the experience and the candor. I wondered how those two would compare, AWD can be a great assett, but adds weight, too bad 928 still felt heavy. Did he notice the Weissach pivot? Too bad no vid of the turtle pulverizing...would've been an interesting analogy had the drive gone a little differently! Now you have to supercharge it....
09-11-2015, 06:49 PM
#6
Race Car
Funny you should bring up the subject of replacement (928 for 911). I just finished reading this web post, and I thought it was very telling as to the confusion around the replacement theory. Interesting read.
https://sites.google.com/site/9shark28/development
https://sites.google.com/site/9shark28/development
I'm pretty sure there is Porsche literature that identifies the 928 as the succesor replacement. But I'm to lazy to go find the right publication(s).
That said, I totally buy that it wasn't supposed to be a direct evolution of form/function, rather a pitch for a different market segment and for the shift of allocation of resources into a particular sector (GT).
09-11-2015, 08:14 PM
#7
Entertaining, well-written post.
Thank you !
Dan
Thank you !
Dan
Trending Topics
09-11-2015, 08:21 PM
#8
Yes. The 911s (from the 80s and some of the 90s, but not the 996) feel quite light compared to the 928.
Its not just weight. Its caster and other suspension settings, and of course WHERE the weight is.
I have driven several 911 variants, mostly from the mid 80s, as well as the 964 ones from the 90s.
I don't fit. My left leg and mostly my big foot does not work with the clutch pedal. It hits the wheel well, and I am consistently focusing on not slipping off the ridiculously hinged pedals.
Its not just weight. Its caster and other suspension settings, and of course WHERE the weight is.
I have driven several 911 variants, mostly from the mid 80s, as well as the 964 ones from the 90s.
I don't fit. My left leg and mostly my big foot does not work with the clutch pedal. It hits the wheel well, and I am consistently focusing on not slipping off the ridiculously hinged pedals.
09-11-2015, 08:40 PM
#9
Hmm.
I've always loved 911 s, never owned one, drove one years and years and years ago (30+ ??),
it seemed, in a word, "raucous".
I also like "the thought" of owning one, but.... those dollars seem to always get in the way.
Besides, I am an average driver, at best... my dear little 928 is far more that I'll ever 'out-do' lol.
Happy where I am, blessed to own this thing that insists on skinning my knuckles, dropping dried shards of motor-goo directly on my corneas, and is taking me to the poor house by 20, 50, and 100 dollar bills.
And who knows, maybe someday I'll even drive it more than a few days in one single stretch.
Dan
I've always loved 911 s, never owned one, drove one years and years and years ago (30+ ??),
it seemed, in a word, "raucous".
I also like "the thought" of owning one, but.... those dollars seem to always get in the way.
Besides, I am an average driver, at best... my dear little 928 is far more that I'll ever 'out-do' lol.
Happy where I am, blessed to own this thing that insists on skinning my knuckles, dropping dried shards of motor-goo directly on my corneas, and is taking me to the poor house by 20, 50, and 100 dollar bills.
And who knows, maybe someday I'll even drive it more than a few days in one single stretch.
Dan
09-11-2015, 10:20 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks you guys for the positive feedback, I won't quit my day job just yet.
I'm pleased you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Funny that BC speaks of suspension. I heard some noises on my run that I have never heard out of a 928 before, lol. Now I understand why you would not want to relay on stock suspension out on a track.
I also need to either pull the rear spacers or roll my panels out some more, I could get some rubbing on those hard turns that were attached to hills.
Just talked to Nic, he's here with us in spirit, hehe.
I need to revise the data!
It's a '91 not a '95, sorry Nic. That makes it 964 and not a 993. That's a big faux pas.
The 964 has the all hydraulic PDAS system and braking system tied into the ABS.
The C4 also has a weissach: it is a self correcting toe in the rear end on turn ins. For those following the thread.
I'm pleased you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Funny that BC speaks of suspension. I heard some noises on my run that I have never heard out of a 928 before, lol. Now I understand why you would not want to relay on stock suspension out on a track.
I also need to either pull the rear spacers or roll my panels out some more, I could get some rubbing on those hard turns that were attached to hills.
Just talked to Nic, he's here with us in spirit, hehe.
I need to revise the data!
It's a '91 not a '95, sorry Nic. That makes it 964 and not a 993. That's a big faux pas.
The 964 has the all hydraulic PDAS system and braking system tied into the ABS.
The C4 also has a weissach: it is a self correcting toe in the rear end on turn ins. For those following the thread.
09-11-2015, 10:37 PM
#11
Race Car
Hey, were you to build out the story, wonder whether 1) Flussig or 2) O/C might pick it up as a newsletter story or blog posting.
That travelogue to Nova Scotia would be excellent to.
That travelogue to Nova Scotia would be excellent to.
09-12-2015, 11:34 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Crumpler/Dave,
You really ought to take your 928 to a good track for real comparison with similar vintage 911's. I did this for nearly 15 years. On any track longer than about 2.25 miles, the 928 will hang with comparably 'prepared' 911's, and eventually, I think it may come down to driver experience (note, I did not say natural skill!) at high performance driving.
I had a LOT of 911 driver's come around to my car after our 25 minute outings to chat (frequently, I was the only participant driving a 928, so it was easy to find!). We'd been essentially equal in lap times, I'd be faster in the straights and they'd catch up or pull ahead in the corners (e.g. Watkins Glen, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Road America). They were usually surprised that the 'dentist wifes' car could hang with their 'real sports cars'. For the first 5-6 years, I was driving an automatic transmission car. The look on their face when they looked in the car and asked "is that an automatic" to which I responded 'yes' was very interesting! The automatic with 2.20 diff is actually very good using only 2nd and 3rd gears, just doesn't give any engine braking when you are slowing for corners.
Everyone - PLEASE try to restrict your high performance driving to a track. Most public highways expose others to 'danger' if you really try to drive at 9.5 tenths. You do not want to see "4 year old child killed in crash with Porsche driver" in the local newspaper! In 15 years and over 10K miles of track driving in Porsche Club DE programs, I have never seen a 2 car incident.
Cheers,
You really ought to take your 928 to a good track for real comparison with similar vintage 911's. I did this for nearly 15 years. On any track longer than about 2.25 miles, the 928 will hang with comparably 'prepared' 911's, and eventually, I think it may come down to driver experience (note, I did not say natural skill!) at high performance driving.
I had a LOT of 911 driver's come around to my car after our 25 minute outings to chat (frequently, I was the only participant driving a 928, so it was easy to find!). We'd been essentially equal in lap times, I'd be faster in the straights and they'd catch up or pull ahead in the corners (e.g. Watkins Glen, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Road America). They were usually surprised that the 'dentist wifes' car could hang with their 'real sports cars'. For the first 5-6 years, I was driving an automatic transmission car. The look on their face when they looked in the car and asked "is that an automatic" to which I responded 'yes' was very interesting! The automatic with 2.20 diff is actually very good using only 2nd and 3rd gears, just doesn't give any engine braking when you are slowing for corners.
Everyone - PLEASE try to restrict your high performance driving to a track. Most public highways expose others to 'danger' if you really try to drive at 9.5 tenths. You do not want to see "4 year old child killed in crash with Porsche driver" in the local newspaper! In 15 years and over 10K miles of track driving in Porsche Club DE programs, I have never seen a 2 car incident.
Cheers,
Last edited by Gary Knox; 09-12-2015 at 12:11 PM.
09-12-2015, 01:12 PM
#13
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have a "massaged" 2005 997 so much newer but also a '79 928. My 928 is a Spyder (convertible) so I'm sure there's some chassis flex that isn't present on the non-molested versions, but the cars are night and day different to drive, which is actually why I have both of them (have a 914 too, which is different yet again).
The 997 has every conceivable performance MOD done to it (supercharged, Bilstein coilovers, occasion, all suspension bits, Fabspeed, etc) whereas the 928 has fewer (supercharged, GTS brakes, new Koni's, 6-speed, Borla, etc). The 911 is like a race car, super quick and nimble, lighter touch driving interaction, very well balanced, exceptional steering feel, etc). The 928 feels more like a musclecar, but a German one - lots of low-end grunt and torque, heavier steering and controls, but with a very smooth ride. It's much nicer than the current American offerings (Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Challenger R/T, Corvette) as I rent these regularly. Of that group, the Mustang is my favorite, but the 928 feels more precise and more special.
My 997 is my favorite one - it's just ridiculously fast and precise, & does everything amazingly well. Love the 928 though as a special cruiser with excellent grunt and a smooth ride.
I'm lucky to have 2 such special cars. Just figured I'd provide my own view and feedback.
The 997 has every conceivable performance MOD done to it (supercharged, Bilstein coilovers, occasion, all suspension bits, Fabspeed, etc) whereas the 928 has fewer (supercharged, GTS brakes, new Koni's, 6-speed, Borla, etc). The 911 is like a race car, super quick and nimble, lighter touch driving interaction, very well balanced, exceptional steering feel, etc). The 928 feels more like a musclecar, but a German one - lots of low-end grunt and torque, heavier steering and controls, but with a very smooth ride. It's much nicer than the current American offerings (Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Challenger R/T, Corvette) as I rent these regularly. Of that group, the Mustang is my favorite, but the 928 feels more precise and more special.
My 997 is my favorite one - it's just ridiculously fast and precise, & does everything amazingly well. Love the 928 though as a special cruiser with excellent grunt and a smooth ride.
I'm lucky to have 2 such special cars. Just figured I'd provide my own view and feedback.
09-12-2015, 05:21 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I have a "massaged" 2005 997 so much newer but also a '79 928. My 928 is a Spyder (convertible) so I'm sure there's some chassis flex that isn't present on the non-molested versions, but the cars are night and day different to drive, which is actually why I have both of them (have a 914 too, which is different yet again).
The 997 has every conceivable performance MOD done to it (supercharged, Bilstein coilovers, occasion, all suspension bits, Fabspeed, etc) whereas the 928 has fewer (supercharged, GTS brakes, new Koni's, 6-speed, Borla, etc). The 911 is like a race car, super quick and nimble, lighter touch driving interaction, very well balanced, exceptional steering feel, etc). The 928 feels more like a musclecar, but a German one - lots of low-end grunt and torque, heavier steering and controls, but with a very smooth ride. It's much nicer than the current American offerings (Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Challenger R/T, Corvette) as I rent these regularly. Of that group, the Mustang is my favorite, but the 928 feels more precise and more special.
My 997 is my favorite one - it's just ridiculously fast and precise, & does everything amazingly well. Love the 928 though as a special cruiser with excellent grunt and a smooth ride.
I'm lucky to have 2 such special cars. Just figured I'd provide my own view and feedback.
The 997 has every conceivable performance MOD done to it (supercharged, Bilstein coilovers, occasion, all suspension bits, Fabspeed, etc) whereas the 928 has fewer (supercharged, GTS brakes, new Koni's, 6-speed, Borla, etc). The 911 is like a race car, super quick and nimble, lighter touch driving interaction, very well balanced, exceptional steering feel, etc). The 928 feels more like a musclecar, but a German one - lots of low-end grunt and torque, heavier steering and controls, but with a very smooth ride. It's much nicer than the current American offerings (Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Challenger R/T, Corvette) as I rent these regularly. Of that group, the Mustang is my favorite, but the 928 feels more precise and more special.
My 997 is my favorite one - it's just ridiculously fast and precise, & does everything amazingly well. Love the 928 though as a special cruiser with excellent grunt and a smooth ride.
I'm lucky to have 2 such special cars. Just figured I'd provide my own view and feedback.
Glad to hear from a dual owner on this one.
God help me, but I love that 914 of yours as well.
What's her story, and how does she feel when she's out on the road?
09-12-2015, 05:29 PM
#15
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The 914 feels like a go-cart. It's "massaged" too - 2.1 L, 38x48 heads, hotter cam, Pertronix ignition, Hot-Wires, dual 45mm Dellorto carbs, Bilstein shocks, roller bearing front Arms, 17" wheels, four 6.5" speakers, drilled rotors, front BMW calipers, etc.
It drives great - different again from the others. It has about half the power of the 928 but is so well balanced you can just about throw it into any corner at any speed and not upset the car. The kids love it as they get to ride in the front with their booster seat.
There are links in my signature to photos galleries of each, including the pink pearl 997 we did for my wife.