Coke Car running lean...
#166
#167
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as far as this discussion. ive just offered a few things here. was i right about the stock chip working better? was i in the right ball park by suggesting the injector size might be the difference between S4 and S3 with the same FR? was i right about the intermediate plate that helped a OP'er on the other thread fix his shift problems? even AO now has support cables so his splitter doesnt end up under a front tire and he ends up into a wall after going over the 80mph he has tested "his" version for! at 100mph and more, lots of things can happen! ive shown video of those kind of tests . or what about the 1000 other things ive done successfully that ive posted here to help others do the same? (by the way, ive received 2000 things from this list that has helped me!) All you do is make noise! seriously! man up and stop being such a complete ***!
by the way, in case you didnt read the title of this web site............ this is a discussion board. we all discuss ... that's the idea... ive only brought what i can as far as ideas and experiences to the table.. while all i really remember you ever doing is just the opposite.... make arguments and shoot insults. you better look in the mirror BC... .lots of projection going on.
in this situation, there is a lot of "discussing" goinig on. you wat to interpret this as "guesswork" go a head. but trust me, there are things happening that we havent found yet, so roundtabling for ideas is not a bad idea.
Last edited by mark kibort; 09-24-2015 at 04:48 PM.
#168
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I've seen it more than a dozen times, both on my own car, as well as customer cars that get brought in to me.
Roger's SE car had the belt light come on randomly, timing belt was a contitech, and I don't believe any other problems were found.
They hold their tension OK when cold, but when you are sitting in stop and go traffic with lots and lots of heatsoak is when the problem occurs.
Roger's SE car had the belt light come on randomly, timing belt was a contitech, and I don't believe any other problems were found.
They hold their tension OK when cold, but when you are sitting in stop and go traffic with lots and lots of heatsoak is when the problem occurs.
There's also the tipover valve in the right side rear fender. It's just a big ball bearing in a plastic housing, but you never know. Then there's the internal state of the rubber fuel lines?
The idle fuel pressure should be more stable than what was in the video. That's mainly what the dampers are for, damping fuel pump (front damper) and injector (rear damper and FPR) pulsations at part throttle for better emission control (and less noise).
The idle fuel pressure should be more stable than what was in the video. That's mainly what the dampers are for, damping fuel pump (front damper) and injector (rear damper and FPR) pulsations at part throttle for better emission control (and less noise).
Mark, the regulator should be able to maintain 55 psi, with the stock pump at 0 vacuum. The regulator regulates the pressure upstream from the injectors, the 24 lb just flow more volume. I had an FMU on a stock S3 pump and it was able to generate 100 psi with 24 lb injectors so the pump is up to the task. AO isn't getting the flow or pressure required to run the s300 chips with the S4 regulator when the engine is running and he should be able to.
so, what happens when the engine is running? fuel is flowing and returning. the regulator is the only thing here that regulates pressure. even a clog wont do much at low fuel flows. conversely to your point, 24lb vs 19 shouldnt make a difference either... so hmmmmm
#169
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which fuel pump are you using?.. isnt the S4 pump different than the 85 pump ?
either way, again, 5psi is not going to drop the fuel ratios from 15-16:1 down to where you want to be for racing (i.e. near 12.5:1 and richer) NO WAY! So, there might be a programming issue with the aftermarket chip.
either way, again, 5psi is not going to drop the fuel ratios from 15-16:1 down to where you want to be for racing (i.e. near 12.5:1 and richer) NO WAY! So, there might be a programming issue with the aftermarket chip.
#170
Inventor
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Typical manifold vaccum at idle is 18-20" hg, which equates to 9-10 psi. IE. with the vacuum hose connected at idle, pressure should be 45-46 psi with a S4-up FPR. With the hose disconnected or at WOT the pressure should be maintained at 55 ±3 psi or else there is a problem in the fuel system.
The FPR adjusts rail pressure to match manifold pressure so that the effective pressure of the fuel is the same on both sides of the fuel injector at idle and WOT. As manifold vacuum increases, less pressure is needed to spray at the same pressure. In other words, if the system had a FPR with no vacuum connection, running at a fixed fuel pressure, idle and part throttle would be too rich.
What kind of programming issue might there be that only affects this car?
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Last edited by PorKen; 09-24-2015 at 05:27 PM.
#171
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which fuel pump are you using?.. isnt the S4 pump different than the 85 pump ?
either way, again, 5psi is not going to drop the fuel ratios from 15-16:1 down to where you want to be for racing (i.e. near 12.5:1 and richer) NO WAY! So, there might be a programming issue with the aftermarket chip.
either way, again, 5psi is not going to drop the fuel ratios from 15-16:1 down to where you want to be for racing (i.e. near 12.5:1 and richer) NO WAY! So, there might be a programming issue with the aftermarket chip.
It's not the injectors.
Only thing between the pump and the regulator is the front damper. So I guess that's next.
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#172
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AO hasn't recorded the fuel pressure at WOT with the filter changed. He stated only that it was around 45 psi at idle with the hose connected.
Typical manifold vaccum at idle is 18-20" hg, which equates to 9-10 psi. IE. with the vacuum hose connected at idle, pressure should be 45-46 psi with a S4-up FPR. With the hose disconnected or at WOT the pressure should be maintained at 55 ±3 psi or else there is a problem in the fuel system.
The FPR adjusts rail pressure to match manifold pressure so that the effective pressure of the fuel is the same on both sides of the fuel injector at idle and WOT. As manifold vacuum increases, less pressure is needed to spray at the same pressure. In other words, if the system had no FPR and was running at a fixed fuel pressure, idle and part throttle would be too rich.
What kind of programming issue might there be that only affects this car?![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Typical manifold vaccum at idle is 18-20" hg, which equates to 9-10 psi. IE. with the vacuum hose connected at idle, pressure should be 45-46 psi with a S4-up FPR. With the hose disconnected or at WOT the pressure should be maintained at 55 ±3 psi or else there is a problem in the fuel system.
The FPR adjusts rail pressure to match manifold pressure so that the effective pressure of the fuel is the same on both sides of the fuel injector at idle and WOT. As manifold vacuum increases, less pressure is needed to spray at the same pressure. In other words, if the system had no FPR and was running at a fixed fuel pressure, idle and part throttle would be too rich.
What kind of programming issue might there be that only affects this car?
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
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i already proved that there was NOT a direct PSI correlation between intake air vacuum and fuel pressure reduction. you can see when he lifts the throttle , there is an even greater reduction, but no where near the 25" of Hg that you can see on a throttle lift. the reason for this is the fuel regulator moves in proportion to this pressure differential, but not directly.
in otherwords, if you have -55psi of vaccum on the vaccum port is the fuel pressure 0? if that is what you are saying, thats not true. Remember, i already did some screen shots of what the vacuum was and what the fuel pressure was based on the intake vacuum..... the effect was about 4-5psi max with and without it attached.
the fact that the fuel pressure keeps the line pressure constant, has nothing to do with the fact that the manifold pressure pulls back fuel pressure a bit. the fuel pressure is most dominated by the fuel it self, building up pressure in the line based on fuel flow. the more it flows, the more the diaphragm closes the return line, this can be independent to manifold pressure. (manifold pressure can be 0, as in WOT), but the fuel flow will change, which means the fuel pressure stays the same because the diaphragm is moving open at the higher RPM for more fuel demands. you see, its not only a pressure regulator, its a volume regulator... that's how it works!
go put a pressure regulator on a S4 (or S3) and you will see your 55psi (or 38) with the fuel pump jumpered. Then, start the car. you will see 51-52 when its running, vacuum connected. disconnect, pressure goes up to 55psi. its not a 10psi drop with vacuum or 15 to 20psi fuel pressure drop on decel.
remember, i did this a long time ago! i used a sunx sensor to measure vacuum.. (very accurate)
#173
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It's the stock FP. Pretty sure S3 and S4 are the same. Stock pump should be good up to 400-ish WHP, so it's not the pump. It's not the filter. It's not he FPR (unless the new one was bad out of the box, but static test shows' it's good).
It's not the injectors.
Only thing between the pump and the regulator is the front damper. So I guess that's next.
Brendan... c'mon dude. Please stop poking the bear. I'd like to keep this thread open until I solve it. Thanks..![bigbye](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/xyxwave.gif)
It's not the injectors.
Only thing between the pump and the regulator is the front damper. So I guess that's next.
Brendan... c'mon dude. Please stop poking the bear. I'd like to keep this thread open until I solve it. Thanks..
![bigbye](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/xyxwave.gif)
I wont worry about Brendan... .i think he might have been beaten as a child or something. we should just feel sorry for him.
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#174
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The wide-band install - you said you will be putting it in a permanent place?
Have you already unplugged the o2 from the system to see what you can control with the MAF pot?
When you get the car going, can you see what the fuel pressure is at RPMs yet? You mentioned a go-pro.
What exhaust do you have? Is it an H-pipe? I had an H-pipe that had no connection from the exhaust pipe to the center section where the 02 sensor sat.
#175
Nordschleife Master
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Learn to put people on your ignore list
There's still a "view post" link you can click to see it, and it saves a lot of clutter from posters who write large numbers of consecutive posts.
On an S3, does this just make the car go open loop? (on an S4, it makes the car run rich as buggery)
Given the mixture is ballpark on cruise, could be your MAF calibration is out of whack, so when the car's running open loop, its lean? My memory from Ken's threads is that the LH2.2 doesn't have an adaptation function.
This thread might be worth a shot:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-85-86-us.html
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Given the mixture is ballpark on cruise, could be your MAF calibration is out of whack, so when the car's running open loop, its lean? My memory from Ken's threads is that the LH2.2 doesn't have an adaptation function.
This thread might be worth a shot:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-85-86-us.html
#176
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Most people are trying to help you - but he really is not. I've had similar issues, but usually its just something stupid. He just is like the retarded cousin everyone is polite to up until he knocks **** over.
The wide-band install - you said you will be putting it in a permanent place?
Have you already unplugged the o2 from the system to see what you can control with the MAF pot?
When you get the car going, can you see what the fuel pressure is at RPMs yet? You mentioned a go-pro.
What exhaust do you have? Is it an H-pipe? I had an H-pipe that had no connection from the exhaust pipe to the center section where the 02 sensor sat.
The wide-band install - you said you will be putting it in a permanent place?
Have you already unplugged the o2 from the system to see what you can control with the MAF pot?
When you get the car going, can you see what the fuel pressure is at RPMs yet? You mentioned a go-pro.
What exhaust do you have? Is it an H-pipe? I had an H-pipe that had no connection from the exhaust pipe to the center section where the 02 sensor sat.
anyway, ive already had him do the WOT on the jack stands. (oh yeah, an idea that helped) .. you don't need to disconnect the O2 sensor, unless you want to check its function at idle or to see if the system does go open loop and it seems to be doing that.
I think he should have already checked out WOT and some RPM level too see if the mixtures are still lean and i think he said they are.
I dont think you can get much of a range with the pot on the MAF.. plus, thats doubtful its out of range.
Im still thinking the fuel regulator could be at fault , as its really the only thing that can regulate the fuel pressure unless you had some MAJOR clogs. again,
I am trying to help brendan, and your ideas are not only less valuable than mine, your posting arrogance to say that yours are better is a little anoying. he has perfect mixtures with the stock chip... this means the maf is good, o2 is good. the reason it falls down, is that the KEN CHIP makes things lean because the fuel pressure is too low (his words). its fine statically, but not fine dynamically. so, the cause of that is in the fuel system plumbing.
Im posting this to help, not to argue with a pencil tip minded internet knuckelhead like you . so...iyou just back off and take Hilton's advice. ignore my posts . your crap is just clutter here.
Learn to put people on your ignore list
There's still a "view post" link you can click to see it, and it saves a lot of clutter from posters who write large numbers of consecutive posts.
On an S3, does this just make the car go open loop? (on an S4, it makes the car run rich as buggery)
Given the mixture is ballpark on cruise, could be your MAF calibration is out of whack, so when the car's running open loop, its lean? My memory from Ken's threads is that the LH2.2 doesn't have an adaptation function.
This thread might be worth a shot:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-85-86-us.html
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
On an S3, does this just make the car go open loop? (on an S4, it makes the car run rich as buggery)
Given the mixture is ballpark on cruise, could be your MAF calibration is out of whack, so when the car's running open loop, its lean? My memory from Ken's threads is that the LH2.2 doesn't have an adaptation function.
This thread might be worth a shot:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-85-86-us.html
do you think the MAF pot adjustment can make such a difference in the AFRs?? if so, then what would his mixtures be at 50psi, with the stock chip if they are already 11-12:1 (all only being due to a 38 to 50psi increase to fuel pressure).
I agree, something else is going on.... and to Brendan's point (because i will admit, he sometimes does contribute), it might be "sommething stupid or simple"
#178
#179
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those beatings as a child must have been hard to overcome. that with the small man's complex i see your need to lash out. we will give you some slack!
anyway, ive already had him do the WOT on the jack stands. (oh yeah, an idea that helped) .. you don't need to disconnect the O2 sensor, unless you want to check its function at idle or to see if the system does go open loop and it seems to be doing that.
I think he should have already checked out WOT and some RPM level too see if the mixtures are still lean and i think he said they are.
I dont think you can get much of a range with the pot on the MAF.. plus, thats doubtful its out of range.
Im still thinking the fuel regulator could be at fault , as its really the only thing that can regulate the fuel pressure unless you had some MAJOR clogs. again,
I am trying to help brendan, and your ideas are not only less valuable than mine, your posting arrogance to say that yours are better is a little anoying. he has perfect mixtures with the stock chip... this means the maf is good, o2 is good. the reason it falls down, is that the KEN CHIP makes things lean because the fuel pressure is too low (his words). its fine statically, but not fine dynamically. so, the cause of that is in the fuel system plumbing.
Im posting this to help, not to argue with a pencil tip minded internet knuckelhead like you . so...iyou just back off and take Hilton's advice. ignore my posts . your crap is just clutter here.
Hilton, its perfect with the stock chip.. and 50psi. Ken says at that level, his chip will make the car lean, but i dont think that 5psi will help a 15-16:1 mixture go to stock safe levels..... with the stock chip he is 12:1 and sometimes 11:1.
do you think the MAF pot adjustment can make such a difference in the AFRs?? if so, then what would his mixtures be at 50psi, with the stock chip if they are already 11-12:1 (all only being due to a 38 to 50psi increase to fuel pressure).
I agree, something else is going on.... and to Brendan's point (because i will admit, he sometimes does contribute), it might be "sommething stupid or simple"
anyway, ive already had him do the WOT on the jack stands. (oh yeah, an idea that helped) .. you don't need to disconnect the O2 sensor, unless you want to check its function at idle or to see if the system does go open loop and it seems to be doing that.
I think he should have already checked out WOT and some RPM level too see if the mixtures are still lean and i think he said they are.
I dont think you can get much of a range with the pot on the MAF.. plus, thats doubtful its out of range.
Im still thinking the fuel regulator could be at fault , as its really the only thing that can regulate the fuel pressure unless you had some MAJOR clogs. again,
I am trying to help brendan, and your ideas are not only less valuable than mine, your posting arrogance to say that yours are better is a little anoying. he has perfect mixtures with the stock chip... this means the maf is good, o2 is good. the reason it falls down, is that the KEN CHIP makes things lean because the fuel pressure is too low (his words). its fine statically, but not fine dynamically. so, the cause of that is in the fuel system plumbing.
Im posting this to help, not to argue with a pencil tip minded internet knuckelhead like you . so...iyou just back off and take Hilton's advice. ignore my posts . your crap is just clutter here.
Hilton, its perfect with the stock chip.. and 50psi. Ken says at that level, his chip will make the car lean, but i dont think that 5psi will help a 15-16:1 mixture go to stock safe levels..... with the stock chip he is 12:1 and sometimes 11:1.
do you think the MAF pot adjustment can make such a difference in the AFRs?? if so, then what would his mixtures be at 50psi, with the stock chip if they are already 11-12:1 (all only being due to a 38 to 50psi increase to fuel pressure).
I agree, something else is going on.... and to Brendan's point (because i will admit, he sometimes does contribute), it might be "sommething stupid or simple"
Now, just personal attacks, way over the point where most people get banned.....
Seems like the goal should be to help AO solve his issue. Since the obvious things have been checked/replaced, I think any idea is worth considering. And frankly, I'm really doubting that Kibort has the experience to be an expert in this field....did that 6.0 car with the fuel injection problem (he was floundering with and asking a hundred questions about) ever get fixed?
I would guess there are other Forums where personal attacks/name calling might have some value.
Let's try and see if we can help AO fix his car.
#180
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Are you retarded? just bite your tongue, pass over my posts, whatever it takes.
can you just not help yourself?
Regardless, my only point of being here is to help... I dont have the answers, but i do have experiences and thoughts that might lead to a fix, as you might as well. so a word to from the wise... why not practice the golden rule here. you will be a lot happier my internet warrior!![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Please let this side bar discussion of you not liking my posts end with this one.
can you just not help yourself?
Regardless, my only point of being here is to help... I dont have the answers, but i do have experiences and thoughts that might lead to a fix, as you might as well. so a word to from the wise... why not practice the golden rule here. you will be a lot happier my internet warrior!
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Please let this side bar discussion of you not liking my posts end with this one.