Black 928 GTS WANTED Scotland.
07-15-2015, 05:34 AM
#16
Just checking my spreadsheet I compiled in April to check prices. The only gts on the market at the time was a red auto with 76k miles for £24k. So yeah they are really inflated prices.
If you want to haggle ask when the cambelt and waterpump was done, years and miles.
Has it had an intake refresh? I bet not. Fred, back me up. Check Dwaynes intake refresh to see what that involves.
Have the 20 plus year old fuel lines in the engine bay been replaced?
Look under the car. The bodywork is aluminium but there is a lot of stuff underneath that will rust. Rusty fuel lines under the car would need the rear suspension dropped to change. Suspension components could be rusting out.
Also phone a guy called Paul Anderson. He runs a garage specialising in 928s.perhaps he or one of his customers may be selling
If you want to haggle ask when the cambelt and waterpump was done, years and miles.
Has it had an intake refresh? I bet not. Fred, back me up. Check Dwaynes intake refresh to see what that involves.
Have the 20 plus year old fuel lines in the engine bay been replaced?
Look under the car. The bodywork is aluminium but there is a lot of stuff underneath that will rust. Rusty fuel lines under the car would need the rear suspension dropped to change. Suspension components could be rusting out.
Also phone a guy called Paul Anderson. He runs a garage specialising in 928s.perhaps he or one of his customers may be selling
07-15-2015, 08:33 AM
#17
Burning Brakes
What do you think of this car? I know it's not black but silver's a good second best...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifie...record/4365715
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifie...record/4365715
07-15-2015, 08:52 AM
#18
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I would think Roger is laughing all the way to the bank after he purchased his SE and took it back to Texas!
It is one thing how good the exterior looks but whether or not the time related "attrition items" have been dealt with may be another matter altogether. Even the GTS is 20 years old now and as we know, there are many items that will be on their last legs if they have not been routinely changed out which main dealers tend not to do. You can bet the timing belt etc is probably OK as they are service interval related items but fuel lines etc it is pot luck. If a real 928 enthusiast owned the car that would be another matter altogether but then I doubt the car would have ended up where it is at the moment.
When purchasing a 928 I always recommend to prospective owners to allow an amount for deferred maintenance of something in the region of US$3k. This may seem a lot but the suspension bushes invariably will not have been attended to and then you have the inevitable items like the inlet manifold refurb that so many simply do not do- on that task alone it is quite easy rack up a parts bill for US$1k. After that it is a question of where you draw a line- a new set of tires will set you back what these days in the UK? - 1k sterling? Do you really want to drive around on tires that you have no idea what they may have hit under the previous owner who you do not know?
928 ownership is a rewarding experience but it can be traumatic for those that are not fully prepared. One thing is for sure even if price are going through the roof chances are the standard of maintenance will not have changed and rarely do these cars come with no deferred maintenance- that will only happen if you purchase from a 928 enthusiast such as the GTS Gary Knox was offering recently and even then, he would probably tell the future owner of a few things that will likely need doing even though his GTS is probably about as good as they get.
Regards
Fred
It is one thing how good the exterior looks but whether or not the time related "attrition items" have been dealt with may be another matter altogether. Even the GTS is 20 years old now and as we know, there are many items that will be on their last legs if they have not been routinely changed out which main dealers tend not to do. You can bet the timing belt etc is probably OK as they are service interval related items but fuel lines etc it is pot luck. If a real 928 enthusiast owned the car that would be another matter altogether but then I doubt the car would have ended up where it is at the moment.
When purchasing a 928 I always recommend to prospective owners to allow an amount for deferred maintenance of something in the region of US$3k. This may seem a lot but the suspension bushes invariably will not have been attended to and then you have the inevitable items like the inlet manifold refurb that so many simply do not do- on that task alone it is quite easy rack up a parts bill for US$1k. After that it is a question of where you draw a line- a new set of tires will set you back what these days in the UK? - 1k sterling? Do you really want to drive around on tires that you have no idea what they may have hit under the previous owner who you do not know?
928 ownership is a rewarding experience but it can be traumatic for those that are not fully prepared. One thing is for sure even if price are going through the roof chances are the standard of maintenance will not have changed and rarely do these cars come with no deferred maintenance- that will only happen if you purchase from a 928 enthusiast such as the GTS Gary Knox was offering recently and even then, he would probably tell the future owner of a few things that will likely need doing even though his GTS is probably about as good as they get.
Regards
Fred
07-15-2015, 12:41 PM
#19
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Just checking my spreadsheet I compiled in April to check prices. The only gts on the market at the time was a red auto with 76k miles for £24k. So yeah they are really inflated prices.
If you want to haggle ask when the cambelt and waterpump was done, years and miles.
Has it had an intake refresh? I bet not. Fred, back me up. Check Dwaynes intake refresh to see what that involves.
Have the 20 plus year old fuel lines in the engine bay been replaced?
Look under the car. The bodywork is aluminium but there is a lot of stuff underneath that will rust. Rusty fuel lines under the car would need the rear suspension dropped to change. Suspension components could be rusting out.
Also phone a guy called Paul Anderson. He runs a garage specialising in 928s.perhaps he or one of his customers may be selling
If you want to haggle ask when the cambelt and waterpump was done, years and miles.
Has it had an intake refresh? I bet not. Fred, back me up. Check Dwaynes intake refresh to see what that involves.
Have the 20 plus year old fuel lines in the engine bay been replaced?
Look under the car. The bodywork is aluminium but there is a lot of stuff underneath that will rust. Rusty fuel lines under the car would need the rear suspension dropped to change. Suspension components could be rusting out.
Also phone a guy called Paul Anderson. He runs a garage specialising in 928s.perhaps he or one of his customers may be selling
07-15-2015, 12:56 PM
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I would think Roger is laughing all the way to the bank after he purchased his SE and took it back to Texas!
It is one thing how good the exterior looks but whether or not the time related "attrition items" have been dealt with may be another matter altogether. Even the GTS is 20 years old now and as we know, there are many items that will be on their last legs if they have not been routinely changed out which main dealers tend not to do. You can bet the timing belt etc is probably OK as they are service interval related items but fuel lines etc it is pot luck. If a real 928 enthusiast owned the car that would be another matter altogether but then I doubt the car would have ended up where it is at the moment.
When purchasing a 928 I always recommend to prospective owners to allow an amount for deferred maintenance of something in the region of US$3k. This may seem a lot but the suspension bushes invariably will not have been attended to and then you have the inevitable items like the inlet manifold refurb that so many simply do not do- on that task alone it is quite easy rack up a parts bill for US$1k. After that it is a question of where you draw a line- a new set of tires will set you back what these days in the UK? - 1k sterling? Do you really want to drive around on tires that you have no idea what they may have hit under the previous owner who you do not know?
928 ownership is a rewarding experience but it can be traumatic for those that are not fully prepared. One thing is for sure even if price are going through the roof chances are the standard of maintenance will not have changed and rarely do these cars come with no deferred maintenance- that will only happen if you purchase from a 928 enthusiast such as the GTS Gary Knox was offering recently and even then, he would probably tell the future owner of a few things that will likely need doing even though his GTS is probably about as good as they get.
Regards
Fred
It is one thing how good the exterior looks but whether or not the time related "attrition items" have been dealt with may be another matter altogether. Even the GTS is 20 years old now and as we know, there are many items that will be on their last legs if they have not been routinely changed out which main dealers tend not to do. You can bet the timing belt etc is probably OK as they are service interval related items but fuel lines etc it is pot luck. If a real 928 enthusiast owned the car that would be another matter altogether but then I doubt the car would have ended up where it is at the moment.
When purchasing a 928 I always recommend to prospective owners to allow an amount for deferred maintenance of something in the region of US$3k. This may seem a lot but the suspension bushes invariably will not have been attended to and then you have the inevitable items like the inlet manifold refurb that so many simply do not do- on that task alone it is quite easy rack up a parts bill for US$1k. After that it is a question of where you draw a line- a new set of tires will set you back what these days in the UK? - 1k sterling? Do you really want to drive around on tires that you have no idea what they may have hit under the previous owner who you do not know?
928 ownership is a rewarding experience but it can be traumatic for those that are not fully prepared. One thing is for sure even if price are going through the roof chances are the standard of maintenance will not have changed and rarely do these cars come with no deferred maintenance- that will only happen if you purchase from a 928 enthusiast such as the GTS Gary Knox was offering recently and even then, he would probably tell the future owner of a few things that will likely need doing even though his GTS is probably about as good as they get.
Regards
Fred
I was quite nervous about it but in the light of that, I may go ahead with this car as a good entry to the world of 928s.
07-15-2015, 01:40 PM
#21
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Thanks Fred. That's great advice especially about the remedial works budget - interestingly I've just done a pre purchase inspection on a really nice black S4 (that's a lot less expensive than a GTS!) and it came out almost exactly and 3k!
I was quite nervous about it but in the light of that, I may go ahead with this car as a good entry to the world of 928s.
I was quite nervous about it but in the light of that, I may go ahead with this car as a good entry to the world of 928s.
The earlier GTS models have weaknesses with respect to the conrods [updated for MY 94/95] and all of them have a poor ability to breath the engine- some worse than others- there has been a lot of discussion about this.
Just as with any car there are plenty of things that can and do go wrong with 928s and I believe their reputation for being troublesome cars is to some extent justified but in many respects overblown as most of it is very solidly built. When the 928 is running as Porsche intended it to it is a very rewarding machine and a drivers delight.
Not everything that can fail will fail but you can guarantee a good few of these points will give you some grief in the first year so advise folks to be ready for such mentally and financially and if you are one of the rare ones who has no trouble- great.
In my first year with my late 90 S4 it broke the drive shaft, the torque tube bearings needed replacing, the a/c compressor needed resealing, the air flow sensor was under reading and the water pump failed and that was in 1999 when the car was less than 10 years old.
A good pre-purchase inspection never goes amiss but generally if it looks the part it probably is. I only know of two people in the UK I would trust such to- one is Paul Anderson based in Stroud and the other is Adrian Clarke based in Cambridge. I dare say there are others whoever/wherever they may be but obviously if you and the potential purchase are in Scotland a bit difficult. Adrian did a PPI for me on a left hooker 90GT after I lost my S4 - went rather well but had a worrysome difference in the A panel gap that not even Adrian could fathom out so sadly I had to pass on that one. Felt sorry for the owner [ seemed a nice genuine chap] but if he could not or did spot something like that then you just have to wonder what else he may have missed.
Black ones look real nice when clean but the trouble is by the time you have finished cleaning them it is then ready for the next clean- when the paint is in showroom nick they show the slightest spots of dust!
Good luck- let us know any further details and do not hesitate to ask if we can help further. We have a few contacts scattered around the UK- if you know where prospect was housed we can ask around if anyone happens to know the car.
Rgds
Fred
07-15-2015, 02:32 PM
#23
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The 90 S4 definitely has the modified heads the 89 I am not so sure about although i suspect not. All i can say is that I would prefer a 90 S4 over the 89 S4 but not everyone would agree with that. The head type is not a deal breaker just that it is a known "weaker" component with some vulnerability to cracking. How often this issue occurs I will defer to others who know better. The LSD is more of a deal breaker but like anything else if the price is right the diff can be updated to LSD relatively easily for $$$$.
Rgds
Fred
07-15-2015, 02:54 PM
#24
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If there is green digi dash reset button in center console it's '89 MY. If there is new style buttons around steering column it's '90 MY or younger.
07-15-2015, 03:14 PM
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07-15-2015, 03:19 PM
#26
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James,
Further to Erkka's post and if it is not clear already, there is a subtle point here in that model year and year of first registration can often be different when new models are introduced. My GTS was first registered in August 1992 although it was a 1993 model of which there are two variants- the later one having R134 in the a/c system.
Thus in your case depending on when first registration actually took place, the model you are looking at may be a 90 model [late in 1989] or an 89 model year variant. No 89 model year has the PSD system and the kit that controls this is located behind the rear wheel on the LHD driver's side of the car. Presumably the same on RHD variants but I do not know that for sure albeit it would be illogical to change it unlike with the steering.
Erkka has identified the more obvious differentiator for you.
Rgds
Fred
Further to Erkka's post and if it is not clear already, there is a subtle point here in that model year and year of first registration can often be different when new models are introduced. My GTS was first registered in August 1992 although it was a 1993 model of which there are two variants- the later one having R134 in the a/c system.
Thus in your case depending on when first registration actually took place, the model you are looking at may be a 90 model [late in 1989] or an 89 model year variant. No 89 model year has the PSD system and the kit that controls this is located behind the rear wheel on the LHD driver's side of the car. Presumably the same on RHD variants but I do not know that for sure albeit it would be illogical to change it unlike with the steering.
Erkka has identified the more obvious differentiator for you.
Rgds
Fred
07-15-2015, 04:23 PM
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James,
Further to Erkka's post and if it is not clear already, there is a subtle point here in that model year and year of first registration can often be different when new models are introduced. My GTS was first registered in August 1992 although it was a 1993 model of which there are two variants- the later one having R134 in the a/c system.
Thus in your case depending on when first registration actually took place, the model you are looking at may be a 90 model [late in 1989] or an 89 model year variant. No 89 model year has the PSD system and the kit that controls this is located behind the rear wheel on the LHD driver's side of the car. Presumably the same on RHD variants but I do not know that for sure albeit it would be illogical to change it unlike with the steering.
Erkka has identified the more obvious differentiator for you.
Rgds
Fred
Further to Erkka's post and if it is not clear already, there is a subtle point here in that model year and year of first registration can often be different when new models are introduced. My GTS was first registered in August 1992 although it was a 1993 model of which there are two variants- the later one having R134 in the a/c system.
Thus in your case depending on when first registration actually took place, the model you are looking at may be a 90 model [late in 1989] or an 89 model year variant. No 89 model year has the PSD system and the kit that controls this is located behind the rear wheel on the LHD driver's side of the car. Presumably the same on RHD variants but I do not know that for sure albeit it would be illogical to change it unlike with the steering.
Erkka has identified the more obvious differentiator for you.
Rgds
Fred
07-15-2015, 04:33 PM
#28
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07-15-2015, 07:06 PM
#29
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The fact of the matter is that leaded gasoline was dropped from the local market just before I became the chief engineer at the local refinery mid 1994 so up to that point there were no CAT converters here before that. Thus why the Honda NSX never made it here because it was only offered with CATS. Once all the GCC countries changed over to MTBE gasoline then we saw CAT converters come into play and they did this because the USA banned MTBE so the Saudi's had to do something with their mid to late 80's MTBE plants so they put pressure to eliminate lead. Oman overcame this legislation by upgrading their main high octane unit to give a higher octane blending stock and thus avoid purchasing that awful stuff. I then recommended they install an isomerisation unit to produce more of the good stuff [but even that was flawed as we subsequently learned it produces some benzene [same problem in some UK refineries].
Regards
Fred
07-16-2015, 02:16 AM
#30
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R12 was used in '92 MY GTS and R134 in '93-95 MY. AFAIK there weren't ROW '93 MY VIN made before normal model year change in summer 1992. Thats what early '93 MY US M718 option means. US car made in 01/92 - 07/92 along ROW '92 MY using exact same parts but which has '93 MY VIN. In your case I would expect it to have normal '92 MY ROW WP0ZZZ92ZNS800061 - 801015 VIN. N = '92. Early US model '93 VIN's were WP0AA292_PS815061 - 815148. P = '93 MY.
M150 Emissions systems removed for countries without unleaded fuel option is unrelated to what is VIN's MY. It was available in '90-95 when all other 928 had cat converters. C24 New Zealand, C31 Saudi Arabia, C32 Arab Gulf States and few other countries could have it specified up to end of '95 MY. In all there were 129 '90-95 C32 Arab Gulf States cars made and 124 of them had this option including 14 out of 16 '95 MY GTS.
M150 Emissions systems removed for countries without unleaded fuel option is unrelated to what is VIN's MY. It was available in '90-95 when all other 928 had cat converters. C24 New Zealand, C31 Saudi Arabia, C32 Arab Gulf States and few other countries could have it specified up to end of '95 MY. In all there were 129 '90-95 C32 Arab Gulf States cars made and 124 of them had this option including 14 out of 16 '95 MY GTS.