Daniel5691

I was recently reading through a post where the author was looking for a set of shop manuals. At one point, Greg Brown commented:

"You are going to need more that the workshop manuals to ever make this car work again.....the workshop manuals do not contain all the little subtle details that make these cars function."

This statement is true, and it again for me, and perhaps for many other n00bs here, raises a recurring observation: that knowing enough is....well.... not exactly enough.

I love my 928, I love the challenge of working on it, and frankly I am glad that I made my way to this pursuit in my 50's instead of my 20's, because I see the great necessity now of fastidious attention to detail beyond the obvious detail. If I had a 928 in my 20s or 30s, I would have been "the stupid PO" who irrevocably botched a job and left the car a smouldering heap for the next poor guy.

And this is my ongoing challenge, in trying to determine what level of detail and understanding is "enough" to be "right".

Maybe it would help by restating my goal for my 928. I want to end up with a driver that I can drive and drive. I want it on the road, long trips, short trips, all weather conditions, etc etc etc. So sometimes I wonder to what degree the advice is tailored to the factory-fresh-concours restoration, and how much is intended for the rough- and- ready- road- warrior- type build.

My point:
I wish there were something more authoritative and informative available for the 928 n00b that the factory WSM.
I would gladly pay for it.

I wish some of the superheroes on this site would collaborate on an organized treatise on repair groups.

Almost like a "WSM commentary" thread.

I know, I know, use the search function blah blah blah, search Rennlist from Google instead of from the site search engine, yes, indeed, I do that.

But for instance, the advice that Greg Brown gave about the routing of the clutch line appeared in a posting that initially had nothing to do with clutch line routing... I find myself trying to cut-copy-paste little tidbits from wildly diverse threads about repair details...

It just seems like the great mission of this wonderful, unique forum, is to provide advice and info, and I would like to see it perhaps take a next step forward as far as accessibility to the uninitiated.

I truly thank all you guys. Any comments on an organized body of WSM commentary?

Dan

MainePorsche

Here is something to help you read the Wiring Diagrams.

http://928-electrics.com/Docs1/Porsc...WDP%20Only.pdf

Here is something to help with automatic transmissions.


http://www.w124performance.com/docs/...2_Mitchell.pdf

GregBBRD

^^^^^^

It is a huge problem.....without an immediate solution. A comprehensive book or manual on what it takes to make these cars work would take months....even for each "subgroup".

I've thought about making a DVD about transmissions...both automatic and manual. The problem is the amount of time required to do this, versus the return. In this day of "copy everything and give it to everybody", the "rewards" for the effort are very diluted.

While it is fun to know every little tiny detail about these cars, "fun" doesn't pay the overhead.

I am absolutely amazed, on a daily basis, the stuff I see....even from supposed "experts" at these vehicles.

Ladybug83

As a noob brethren, I'd pay for that too. A local parts supplier sells several books titled 101 project for your 911. 101 projects for your 944, etc, etc. I wish there were one for 928 but no dice, not yet anyways.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that YOU will decide the balance between reliable and concours. Everyone's balance is different, so go with your gut. You can't really be wrong, unless your ignoring obvious critical repairs and maintenance.

I've found that I need a couple days of reading before I dive in to the car. WSM and rennlist combined are invaluable. Not a complete volume of knowledge, but about as close as you can get. It can be tedious piecing together all the info. When I get stuck, I start a thread and ask questions. Renn-peeps are pretty good about responding and giving advise. And, I've also come to grips with the idea that, no matter how much reading i do, no matter how good the write-up, I'll still make mistakes. The way i see it, it gives me chance to do it again, do it better the next time.

Rob Edwards

I perused RL for several years before actually owning one, and take every chance I can get to work on/play with 928s, my own and others', to learn as much as I can about them. From more than 10 years of spending too much time on this board I feel like I have a decent working knowledge of S4+ cars and their systems, and what's available in the RL archives in terms of gems like the blue hose routing Greg mentioned. But when push comes to shove there's probably more gems that have gone unwritten than have been committed to electrons. And I still learn something each and every freaking time I walk into Greg's shop. Which is why this continues to be fun!

I do wish (though I doubt IB would allow it in a million years) that I could have a hard drive with the content of every RL 928 forum thread ever posted in the past 15 years. With the set of 928 keywords that rattle around in my head and some facility at text-mining that comes from my day job, I could probably put together a reasonable listing of the 'gems' by system, at least for the later cars.

There's already a DIY/How-To 928 forum at RL, which is utterly unused. At the very least Dwayne's writeups should be linked there, that would be a natural place to organize writeups by system. It could be kind of an updated Nichols tips site (which is itself a great resource: http://www.nichols.nu/tips.htm

-

928NOOBIE

I love how well these cars are built...they are obviously made to be taken apart and put back together again. They are tough as h@ll, I love the fact I get such a great platform to learn from.

They are complex but in a lot of ways they are also quite simple and lots of opportunities to make them better and faster and more fun. I love the things on these cars that don't exist on others...like ride height adjusters...how freaking awesome is it that you can adjust the ride height of your own car without even taking the wheels off the ground?

I used to work on cars when I was a teenager living in the middle of nowhere, dirt poor, literally working under cars in the dirt.

I started working real jobs and started buying only new cars...for 8 years that was all I did and I bought several.

When I got this car and I started working on it I realized that I really enjoy working on them...time stops when I get to work on the car...I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to realize that great release for me if it hadn't been for this car.

j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

Hi Dan,
I fully understand your desire for 928 knowledge. I even more fully understand Greg Brown's statement that the WSM's are not complete in this respect.
I think you both are really talking about the difference in written or electronic data compared to knowledge learned through that and the addition of years of experience. To simply assemble more authors' narratives of their experience may help a little, but it is really an impossible goal.
For now it's the best we can hope to do, however.
Someone said: "You can't hammer a nail over the internet."
Good luck,
Dave

dr bob

Oncein a while I get the itch to share some specific system guidance in a thread here. Not for folks to comment on or throw rocks at it, but as an FYI. About the only way to do that is by authoring externally, dumping it into bite-size posts to a new thread as fast as possible, then closing the thread.

In the now-ancient system known as Usenet, we'd set up 'closed' threads, moderated by a few very carefully selected folks, and set up a parallel open thread for comments and contributions. Then the moderators could carefully choose and insert posts from the open thread into the moderated thread. That preserves the informational integrity of the original thread. But a reader can always go and read every supportive comment, along with every potshot, snipe, or off-topic post should they choose.

Would that work here? The OP suggests correctly that there are different goals for different owners and other participants. Some are preservationists, some are hot-rodders bent on continual improvement, some are racers, or street performance enthusiasts, or concourse enthusiasts. Some are new owners suddenly in another persons failed project, and of those some are trying to keep their head above water while others are taking apart and fixing things. Some want their cars to be uber-reliable, others just need to get to church and the pool hall. Some are relatively budget-cramped while others have spending flexibility. So it turns out that what I might share as a recommended slution to a particular problem could be way diffrent from what another might do. Is it fixed forever, or just barely good enough to get you home once? And what is the user's ability level?

So there could easily be a dozen versions of the "user repair manual". Do I clean and buff the contacts, or do I replace the part? Simple question with a dozen competing/contributing factors, means there can easily be a dozen answers. Maybe a "User WSM" needs to have all those answers ranked somehow, so the various users could each identify a "solution" that satisfies all the criteria they have defined around their problem.

Bottom line is there is no one simple easy answer to almost any 928 "problem". "It depends...." qualifies every answer, as it does in almost every question posted to the group now.

Randy V

See the New Visitor...FAQ thread at the top of this forum.

SMTCapeCod

The community benefits from the sometimes-uber-users
Dwayne,
Scott Yoo,
Landseer,
Worf's inspection protocol,
Alan's draft electrics
Ed's LED saga
Stan's restoration project(s)
Dean Fuller's restoration/TT
Maine's trans replace..and the one in Az...
....there's always more....guaranteed in listing a few I'm omitting very, very many- apologies for that.
Many, many others that work up the gumption to post and/or photodocument photo procedures. And historic archives- Theo, Pirtle, Nichols, 928Intl Tech tips etc.
And then we also get help and the occasional slam dunk from those that are too busy to contribute such effort, but still have outstanding diagnostic skills/experience offered in an occasional post.
We also have an owner's club that has declined to allocate the effort to collect video documentation of the various tech sessions at the various regional/local meets over the years. But hey, they'll throw some $$ to get some garage queens packed off to a concourse event....And yes, I am glad that there are pristine examples of the breed that are prospering under optimal care. But I'd rather see OC $$ get thrown at resuscitating Leeroy....but I digress..

Might be interesting for someone to develop an infographic with links to various sources, seems like the technology has moved beyond plain lists of URLs and aggregations of divergent posts?

MainePorsche

There is something more authoritative and informative than the factory WSM.
We're conversing on it now. We're adding to it now. We extract from it. We instruct on it. We learn from it. We do it in real time as well.
It is the dynamic of the Forum.

jwillman

I think the 928 community, Rennlist, 928OC, Pelican, 928 Intl, 928 Classics and others to name a few are already the greatest resource of any other car enthusiast community I have run across.

Try to find the information available for any other vehicle like the 928 or the ability to post questions and get workable answers the same day.

We are already the model for all other enthusiast communities even without a published reference.

Thank you to every poster on every 928 forum for making 928 ownership so enjoyable even when frustrating!

pluckedchicken

Sadly Mr. Brown is absolutely correct...

At one time I owned a '62 Rolls Royce Silver Cloud, an automobile that had similar production numbers and production life as the 928.

Foremost expert and Crew trained mechanic, Ralph Curzon, created a series of VHS tapes, The tapes were arranged in to 2 tape "Volumes" on multiple subjects (e.g. Brakes, Tuning, etc), Each Volume pertaining to maintenance and restoration of the Silver Cloud.

Given the detail and how comprehensive each tape was, it must have been hundreds of hours recording, and lord knows how much editing. It was a very expensive and time consuming proposition. The tapes were a godsend to owners of these uniquely engineered cars, and bargain a $50 a Volume... yet at $50 these tapes did not sell well. Now that the price of a Sliver Cloud has gone up, so has the value of the knowledge imparted on those tapes, and owners sell or give the content of those tapes away.

When I asked if he'd ever consider putting them out on DVD, he said different company's have offer their services, but "too expensive". I suspect Mr Curzon did not make a dime on what was a monumental effort.

Every time I saw Mr. Curzon at an owner event I expressed my deepest gratitude.. but Mr. Brown is correct, thank you does not put bread on the table.

While it would be grand to have Greg Brown leading us though the proper way to diagnose and repair our 928s properly, Mr. Brown is the only one with skin in the game

The Deputy

^^^^ this...

I don't know how much easier it could be to find out information than using the advice above. Either search or ask...and you'll find the answer you are looking for. Sure there are those jobs where you might have a setback or two, but with presistance (and enough bread...lol)...you will prevail.

I find these cars very interesting to work on, and that is why I went this direction while looking for an retirement project(s). Been a mechanic for thirty some years now and I'd become quite bored with American muscle car stuff...and found the German engineering more fascinating. I've always liked the satisfaction of learning or gaining something while working on one of these cars.

Brian.

curtisr

This might help. It's a 'sticky' at the other forum that leads to many a 'how-to'. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ues-fixes.html