docmirror

I just drove 2 hours yesterday to look at a Hummer for sale(don't ask). The description and two pics were pretty good, and the price was right but when I got there - oh jeez. Filthy car inside, engine bay looks like 10k miles of dust and never saw a hose, massive stereo wires leading to the rear but no massive stereo anymore. Coolant low, oil black, idles rough. I drive it for a few blocks, and made the mistake of testing it in 4D low range. It got stuck in low range! Now what, I'm two miles from the guys house and I can only go 8 MPH, oof. I do some tricks while rolling slow and it pops out of low range. The dash stereo faceplate is cracked, the front tires are worn out, and the rear windows won't go down(not the child safety switch, I checked).

I tell the seller 'ya know, when you want to sell a car, it would be nice if it were a little cleaner'. He says; 'this is what I'm selling'. Not to me buddy, and drive 2 hours home. Comparative neglect. Same with this seller, he doesn't care about fixing ANYTHING, or even spending 1 hour cleaning up a little bit! What else lurks? TT issues? TBF? Intake refresh? Ground cleaning? Relays? Well, that's why I bottom feed. So, since I still don't have the sellers info, and it sounds like this is really a bottom feeder car, I'm expecting bottom feeding pricing. My 88 S4 under 100k miles with several similar issues sold for $5k. Add $1000 for desirable paint(to some, not to others), and we're at $6000. Add $500 for the hell of it, and we're at $6500.

Since I'm soft on the cassisrot I personally would have gone the extra $500 and made the deal at $7000 but that's just ME, and not someone else. But - first I would have personally tested the crank float. After buying, that extra $500 would have stuck in my craw, each time I had to go fix something else that came up in the next 6 months.

Cameron

Slider,

IMHO you made the right decision. The car was not as advertised so the onus is on the seller to make it right to you, or move on and find another buyer. Completely inappropriate criticism and name calling he levels your way - utterly ridiculous.

The reluctantly provided carfax demonstrated that the seller misrepresented the mileage. If he is going to misrepresent something so fundamental as the mileage of a vehicle, imagine what other things he considers to be just minor details that the buyer has no right to know about. Plus the tactic that he used - have you drive over 3 hours to pick up the car - leverage for him on you to buy a misrepresented vehicle so you don't waste your trip and time. Shame on the seller.

At least now if someone decides to pull the trigger, they have a better handle on the true nature of the vehicle in question. The detailed pics and description from White Lightning sure help with that as well.

Cameron

James Bailey

Doc brings up a valid POTENTIAL problem of thrust bearing failure.....Even Mark Anderson bought a car with an "idle problem" only to find that it was TBF....obviously not the end of the world for him But who has owned, driven, seen,raced and taken apart more 928s than him ???

AirtekHVAC

I have no dog in the hunt, but I live near the seller, and met Barry out there to look at it, and meet the seller. The car was in great condition, I was surprised. The seller seemed very honest and forthcoming, at this time. I can not speak for the prior situation. All in all, it was well sorted, and did not need very much. It ran fantastic with the exception of the idle issue. I was quite impressed. If I had the $8500, I would have snatched it up and not looked back. The motor was fairly clean, I noted a small pool of oil near the front right corner of the valley, but could not see where it came from. I feel this car has a group of features, options, and documentation that you rarely find in this price range. The roof is faded, and could use a respray, but it is still a head turner. A little cash and a little work, and this car would be a stunner.

Just my impartial 2cents. I would buy from this guy. He knows he has a nice car and does not want to give it away, but does need to move it. Definitely a diamond in the rough.

bureau13

That's all well and good, hopefully he has learned the lesson that honesty is the best policy when putting ads for cars that you want to sell. The value of the car at this point is irrelevant to the issue that the car was misrepresented, specifically regarding the idle issue. "Needs nothing" and "doesn't idle" are pretty f-ing mutually exclusive. I'm amazed anyone here would disagree with that. Due to that, and that alone, I don't fault the OP for not buying the car. Was it still an amazing deal that he could have purchased and been very happy with? Quite possibly...but irrelevant.

M. Requin

To me it looks like the seller made some mistakes in presentation, and the buyer made some mistakes in expectations, and neither seems like a very good negotiator. So I'm left with the car, and IMHO it's a stunner, and would require not a whole lot of work to be spectacular. I hope it finds a good home, a really good home. And I am looking forward to more interior pics - if they are as good as the pics of the exterior Barry has taken they will likely sell the car!

Mark R.

None of us "prefer" this type of seller, but sometimes it's worth working with them.
If often requires way more effort to close the deal.
But that is where the really good deals will almost always be found.

And that is where you can usually expect to pay top dollar.
AND that is what is now in place here...
An informed enthusiast is now involved, and providing assistance to the seller.
I predict that this car will now sell for over $10k.
I think the OP should have grabbed it up for $7k...
.

Cameron

I don't think the OP should have grabbed it up for $7k, without knowing the true mileage and the cause of the idle issue - what if it is TBF related? He made a fair offer for a misrepresented vehicle with unknown mileage that had potentially serious issues that he would be assuming all of the risk for. The seller declined the offer over a $500 difference - that's fine too.

It could turn out to be a great buy, or a bust. I kind of hope someone here gets interested and gets a PPI done just to see how it turns out.

Mark R.

I don't disagree with anything you've said in the above post.
The seller and buyer are each free to make the decisions that were made.
I just think there was an opportunity missed for more/better "negotiation".

Maybe one concession is the deal doesn't get closed that exact same day.
Buyer agrees to buy it for $7k, as long as he can check the following items...
That's part of what I'm saying about working with difficult sellers.
Yes, it requires more effort, and perhaps another trip back up there.
But one has to work harder to expect to get the really good deals...

Two of the best car purchases I ever made were from VERY bad sellers.
(neither of those purchases were for any of my 928's, unfortunately).
Both were basket case sellers, with ill-prepared cars that I could see past.
Others wouldn't work with them, which eliminated my competition as a buyer.
Required lots of patience, but in the end, nice cars for very discounted prices.
.

MainePorsche

That's what was missing from the start... a PPI.

docmirror

While I'm always up for a good deal, I don't think your two data points are indicative of the common trend.

More typical the bad seller is selling a rotting tomato. Sort of the inverse of Whilhoit. Thus is the nature of the efficient market. There are bottom feeders like myself, and there are Wilhoit buyers. In either case, sellers don't set prices, buyers do. I tend to make a little bit on each car I buy, just because I buy them right, and when I sell, it's in as nice a condition as I can reasonably make it. Frex - the 968 I bought was flat tires, fading paint, front of the engine off, missing rad, tons of cig butts in the footwell. After I was done, you would never have believed it was the same car. Bad seller, good car, but that's rare.

dr bob

I don't have a horse in this race, but...

There's a huge amount of spectrum between a seller's description and a buyer's description looking at the same car. I offered an "interesting" car for sale and market price. A buyer came and looked at thecar, and started rattling off discounts he wanted for things the were no longer "perfect" in his estimation. I tallied his numbers calmly, and offered to take his 'discounts' off of the new price if he was interested. That number ended up being about three times what I had originally asked. He ended up buying the car for my original "firm" ask. Turns out that sme folks feel obligated to try and beat the price down, like it's a matter of pride or an insult to their manhood if they don't at least try.

If I have a car priced fairly, I have no trouble upping my sales price by the amount the buyer wants to discount, so we can endup at what I originally considered a fair price.

No one is obligated to sell for less than they want despite a potential buyer's fixit list, and at the same time no one is obligated to buy for more than they want to pay if theyconsider that list too big for what they are getting. Worst case is that everyone walks away to sell or buy another day. In this case I feel for the buyer's time spent driving to look, and don't know or care what was originally represented. Each "surprise" item should be duly noted, and expectation adjusted based on what you actually see.

Keep in mind though that there are truly very few "perfect" cars, perfect in the eyes of both the seller and any particular buyer. If the seller represents a car as "perfect", it's as it sat on the showroom floor. Perhaps a "Kermit" or a very low-mile carefully maintained example with some cosmetic restoration by Wilhoit would be as close to perfect as possible. Otherwise, cars are "perfect" considering the age and mileage, care and feeding, maintenance and modifications, normal wear and tear, storage conditions, and those qualifications create a huge grey area for interpretation.

I bought my car sight-unseen from a known seller's description. In spite of his description of the car as "perfect", I offered what I considered a fair price based on the condition of a few other 928's I'd seen while we worked on the sale. It turned out his was a lot closer to perfect than my expectation. So even though we had agreed on a price and a casheir's check had already been cashed, I had no trouble scribbling out a check for a couple $thou on top of that. The car was that nice.

For the PO's benefit, you always have the option of ajusting your offer, which you did. The seller has the option of not accepting the revised offer, which he did. IMHO, you and the seller agreed to terminate the transaction, and at this point you need to walk away and look for another car, one that better meets your expectations. Leave this behind you. Continuing to rant about your hurt feelings benefits no one. I'm sorry your expectations weren't met, and I'll guess the seller was too. If he gets more sorry he can come back to you at your lowest offer. If you get more sorry, you can always come up with the money. In the meanwhile, walk away, move on, nothing to see here, don't cry over spilled milk or your hurt feelings, because it gains you nothing.


My too sense.

White Lightnin'

Sage advice... thank you Dr. Bob.

At present, I am fielding an offer over $10k and am arranging a PPI with a noted local 928 expert. Bid comes from a long time Porsche owner with current fleet of 951, 986, 987 and 930 under restoration.

White Lightnin'

...

slider172

I just hope the current buyer is being told the truth and doesnt hear" the odometer stopped on the way here."