New product. Injector adaptors
10-14-2014, 03:17 PM
#31
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I presume since we're moving from a low impedance, to a high impedance that the injector driver won't have any trouble with the current required. But - wondering if there should be a matching ballast resistor in the circuit?
Anyone looked into this? Since we're not working with analog waveformes, I really don't care about spikes but I hope there's no damage to the driver circuit, as that would be costly to repair. I would think a parallel ballast would be the way to go, but I have no experience in this area, just some random thoughts. Injector chatter at high revs?
Anyone looked into this? Since we're not working with analog waveformes, I really don't care about spikes but I hope there's no damage to the driver circuit, as that would be costly to repair. I would think a parallel ballast would be the way to go, but I have no experience in this area, just some random thoughts. Injector chatter at high revs?
10-14-2014, 03:28 PM
#32
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No resistor needed, this is actually an odd modification since normally people want to switch from high impedance injectors to low impedance for performance reasons.
Since 99% of these adapters from Greg will be in stock 928's, it's a non issue. Even for modified cars, 42lb injectors are readily available in high impedance.
The reason for the resistance difference is low impedance injectors work with a "peak and hold" driver vs a "saturated" driver in high resistance systems:
http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%2...ctors%202.html
Since 99% of these adapters from Greg will be in stock 928's, it's a non issue. Even for modified cars, 42lb injectors are readily available in high impedance.
The reason for the resistance difference is low impedance injectors work with a "peak and hold" driver vs a "saturated" driver in high resistance systems:
http://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%2...ctors%202.html
Peak and Hold Vs. Saturated Comparison
Saturated
There are two types of drivers in MPI systems. One is the saturated driver, and one is the peak and hold. First, you have to match the injector's operating parameters to your ECU. Most domestic production Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) systems use an ECU with 12 volt Saturated Circuit drivers. These systems are very inexpensive, simple, and reliable. This type of driver works by supplying 12 volts to the injectors and the ECU turns it on and off to establish a fuel injector pulse. In general, if an injector has a high resistance specification (12-16 ohms) the ECU uses a 12 volt saturated circuit driver to control it. This means that the current flow in the driver and injector circuit stays low keeping the components cool for long life. The downside to a Saturated Circuit driver is that it has a slower response time (opening and closing time) than a peak and hold type. This slower time can somewhat decrease the usable operating range of the injector energized by this driver. An injector operating on a saturated circuit driver typically has a reaction time of 2 milliseconds while a peak and hold driver typically responds in 1.5 ms.
Peak and Hold
The next kind of driver is called Peak and Hold Drivers and Injectors. These types of injectors and drivers may also be called current sensing or current limiting. Peak and Hold injectors are usually used in aftermarket high performance systems. Because they are more expensive and complex than saturated circuit drivers, they are not generally used with domestic production ECUs. Most high flow injectors are low resistance (2-5 ohms) and use a peak and hold driver to activate them. With this type of driver, 12 volts is still delivered to the injector, but because of its low resistance, the current in the driver circuit is high. The substantial increase in current flow is something a saturated injector cannot handle. The Peak current quickly opens the injector while the lower Hold current rating is used to keep it open for the duration of the ECU command. Because these injectors have larger physical parts and often work against high fuel pressure, they require an extra “kick” from the higher current to keep the opening and closing time of the injector stable at the higher fuel flow rate.
Saturated
There are two types of drivers in MPI systems. One is the saturated driver, and one is the peak and hold. First, you have to match the injector's operating parameters to your ECU. Most domestic production Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) systems use an ECU with 12 volt Saturated Circuit drivers. These systems are very inexpensive, simple, and reliable. This type of driver works by supplying 12 volts to the injectors and the ECU turns it on and off to establish a fuel injector pulse. In general, if an injector has a high resistance specification (12-16 ohms) the ECU uses a 12 volt saturated circuit driver to control it. This means that the current flow in the driver and injector circuit stays low keeping the components cool for long life. The downside to a Saturated Circuit driver is that it has a slower response time (opening and closing time) than a peak and hold type. This slower time can somewhat decrease the usable operating range of the injector energized by this driver. An injector operating on a saturated circuit driver typically has a reaction time of 2 milliseconds while a peak and hold driver typically responds in 1.5 ms.
Peak and Hold
The next kind of driver is called Peak and Hold Drivers and Injectors. These types of injectors and drivers may also be called current sensing or current limiting. Peak and Hold injectors are usually used in aftermarket high performance systems. Because they are more expensive and complex than saturated circuit drivers, they are not generally used with domestic production ECUs. Most high flow injectors are low resistance (2-5 ohms) and use a peak and hold driver to activate them. With this type of driver, 12 volts is still delivered to the injector, but because of its low resistance, the current in the driver circuit is high. The substantial increase in current flow is something a saturated injector cannot handle. The Peak current quickly opens the injector while the lower Hold current rating is used to keep it open for the duration of the ECU command. Because these injectors have larger physical parts and often work against high fuel pressure, they require an extra “kick” from the higher current to keep the opening and closing time of the injector stable at the higher fuel flow rate.
10-14-2014, 03:57 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
I didn't know I had this problem until I looked at my '86 Euro S induction set up last weekend and thought something was up.
Before I even had a chance to figure it out, Greg posts a solution.
Before I even had a chance to figure it out, Greg posts a solution.
10-14-2014, 04:00 PM
#34
Former Sponsor
Thread Starter
It is not optimal having all you guys developing new parts for our cars on the other side of the pond.
Here is the equation for final price in Sweden:
part price
+shipping
+3% import duty
+25% tax on all of the costs above
+14$ import declaration fee
=EXPENSIVE!
Åke owns his own machine shop, so it would be very easy for him to make them. But I don't think he will copy them for his own or any other use, since his car will have carburetors and the market for these parts are not that big over here.
Here is the equation for final price in Sweden:
part price
+shipping
+3% import duty
+25% tax on all of the costs above
+14$ import declaration fee
=EXPENSIVE!
Åke owns his own machine shop, so it would be very easy for him to make them. But I don't think he will copy them for his own or any other use, since his car will have carburetors and the market for these parts are not that big over here.
It's the "copycat" people in the US, and the people who support them, that gripe me.
There's some really good people involved in the 928 world. Roger at 928-R-US and Sean are some of them. Roger could carry my "fan loom" over to Sean and have him make them for him, to save a couple of bucks, but neither Roger or Sean would do that.
Mark Anderson is a fantastic guy....he's a tough business man when dealing with dollars, but would never "slight" anyone.
Jim Doerr at 928 classics is a great guy. Stan (Mr. Merlin) is another one of the very best guys around. There's more of the really good guys....in this to make a living, but also into it to help people and come up with new pieces.
And then there are the bad apples....
10-14-2014, 05:06 PM
#35
Instructor
I understand the problem.....and would expect Ake to make his own, should he need them. I would seriously send him the dimensioned drawing....he's a class act!
It's the "copycat" people in the US, and the people who support them, that gripe me.
There's some really good people involved in the 928 world. Roger at 928-R-US and Sean are some of them. Roger could carry my "fan loom" over to Sean and have him make them for him, to save a couple of bucks, but neither Roger or Sean would do that.
Mark Anderson is a fantastic guy....he's a tough business man when dealing with dollars, but would never "slight" anyone.
Jim Doerr at 928 classics is a great guy. Stan (Mr. Merlin) is another one of the very best guys around. There's more of the really good guys....in this to make a living, but also into it to help people and come up with new pieces.
And then there are the bad apples....
It's the "copycat" people in the US, and the people who support them, that gripe me.
There's some really good people involved in the 928 world. Roger at 928-R-US and Sean are some of them. Roger could carry my "fan loom" over to Sean and have him make them for him, to save a couple of bucks, but neither Roger or Sean would do that.
Mark Anderson is a fantastic guy....he's a tough business man when dealing with dollars, but would never "slight" anyone.
Jim Doerr at 928 classics is a great guy. Stan (Mr. Merlin) is another one of the very best guys around. There's more of the really good guys....in this to make a living, but also into it to help people and come up with new pieces.
And then there are the bad apples....
There is almost always drawbacks with buying copycat parts, but people aren't aware of it and mostly just focus on the price.
If I would have some criticism for you leaders of developing and supplying products to the 928 community is that you don't show your products enough.
People might buy the copycat stuff, because they don't know that there is an original. It would be nice with a better homepage with all your improved and performance product, or at least a list of products. Now you need to find posts here on Rennlist about the product or that someone mentioning buying the specific part.
I know that you spend a lot of hours developing parts and might not have time for have a fully updated homepage, but I would guess that just a list of parts would have a positive effect on sales.
10-14-2014, 05:09 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Someone correct me if I'm wrong: This piece sits on top of a newer-style fuel injector (Bosch Type 2), so that it will accept a 7mm fuel line because the OEM injectors for the OB cars are pretty much unobtanium at this point.
Is that right?
How do I know if my injectors need to be replaced?
Is that right?
How do I know if my injectors need to be replaced?
10-14-2014, 05:37 PM
#37
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Don't know about Sweden but in Euro country the exchange rate USD/EUR almost evens out the extra costs. Regardless I buy from these great guys in the US because they get the correct pieces and keep these cars on the road.
10-14-2014, 06:19 PM
#38
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You should market these to the Mercedes crowd too.
There are numerous mercedes, and jags too that use the same style of injectors.
Alternatively, those on a cheaper budget can turn down the top of the injector and then put the hose directly overtop of the injector. It's the perfect size with two metal ribs to hold the hose on.
There are numerous mercedes, and jags too that use the same style of injectors.
Alternatively, those on a cheaper budget can turn down the top of the injector and then put the hose directly overtop of the injector. It's the perfect size with two metal ribs to hold the hose on.
10-14-2014, 07:01 PM
#39
Nice stuff Greg. I purchased your hose assy for my clutch job and its top notch quality (as I expected).
Keep inventing, there are us out here that appreciate the options you provide.
Alex
Keep inventing, there are us out here that appreciate the options you provide.
Alex
10-14-2014, 10:36 PM
#40
Drifting
Greg,
Nice product.
You should start to look into getting use and design patents for your ideas.
If you fill out the app and do the drawings patents are not expensive to apply for.
The applications aren't as complicated as you'd think either. But you are too late on many of your products as you've already marketed them so "they're out there"..
This turned adapter is simple to draw, perfect for a design patent if you plan to market them to VW/MB owners.
And once you fill out the app you can say patent pending.
I hope you start, i am trying to become familiar with it now as i've had many ideas copied. i can't look through certain car catalogs or i get a little sick..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...77412846,d.aWw
Nice product.
You should start to look into getting use and design patents for your ideas.
If you fill out the app and do the drawings patents are not expensive to apply for.
The applications aren't as complicated as you'd think either. But you are too late on many of your products as you've already marketed them so "they're out there"..
This turned adapter is simple to draw, perfect for a design patent if you plan to market them to VW/MB owners.
And once you fill out the app you can say patent pending.
I hope you start, i am trying to become familiar with it now as i've had many ideas copied. i can't look through certain car catalogs or i get a little sick..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...77412846,d.aWw
10-14-2014, 10:38 PM
#41
I understand the problem.....and would expect Ake to make his own, should he need them. I would seriously send him the dimensioned drawing....he's a class act!
It's the "copycat" people in the US, and the people who support them, that gripe me.
There's some really good people involved in the 928 world. Roger at 928-R-US and Sean are some of them. Roger could carry my "fan loom" over to Sean and have him make them for him, to save a couple of bucks, but neither Roger or Sean would do that.
Mark Anderson is a fantastic guy....he's a tough business man when dealing with dollars, but would never "slight" anyone.
Jim Doerr at 928 classics is a great guy. Stan (Mr. Merlin) is another one of the very best guys around. There's more of the really good guys....in this to make a living, but also into it to help people and come up with new pieces.
And then there are the bad apples....
It's the "copycat" people in the US, and the people who support them, that gripe me.
There's some really good people involved in the 928 world. Roger at 928-R-US and Sean are some of them. Roger could carry my "fan loom" over to Sean and have him make them for him, to save a couple of bucks, but neither Roger or Sean would do that.
Mark Anderson is a fantastic guy....he's a tough business man when dealing with dollars, but would never "slight" anyone.
Jim Doerr at 928 classics is a great guy. Stan (Mr. Merlin) is another one of the very best guys around. There's more of the really good guys....in this to make a living, but also into it to help people and come up with new pieces.
And then there are the bad apples....
BTW, can you send me the dimensions of this new adapter?
All kidding aside, I need to order some connector and adapters from you. Will hit you up on e-mail. Great work buddy.
10-15-2014, 12:05 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Just as a little side question, does anyone know the effects of moving from a low to high impedance injector besides a slower reaction time?
These adapters look great and I think it would be cool to see a few sets at Sharktoberfest to gain some interest.
These adapters look great and I think it would be cool to see a few sets at Sharktoberfest to gain some interest.
10-15-2014, 12:15 AM
#43
Been wondering that myself. Reason being is I ended up with some slow impedance 36lb injectors on my SC kit and it threw everyone for a loop as Victor was providing high impedance ones. Since I got my own it was a learning experience. Curious also.
10-15-2014, 02:36 AM
#44
Former Sponsor
Thread Starter
John Speake will know for sure, but in the words of Mark Anderson, I think it "releases the smoke, from the brain".
10-15-2014, 02:48 AM
#45
Former Sponsor
Thread Starter
Someone correct me if I'm wrong: This piece sits on top of a newer-style fuel injector (Bosch Type 2), so that it will accept a 7mm fuel line because the OEM injectors for the OB cars are pretty much unobtanium at this point.
Is that right?
How do I know if my injectors need to be replaced?
Is that right?
How do I know if my injectors need to be replaced?
Difficulty starting...especially when warm. (Leaking injector/injectors.)
Uneven color on spark plugs....with good compression and good ignition components. (1 or more injectors with poor flow .)
High emission numbers. (Individual cylinders running rich or lean due to injector problems.)
Poor performance. (Several low flow injectors.)
Intermittent misfire. (Spray pattern/flow changes due to wear or clogging...them "cleans up" and flows better.