Leon Speed

So I have a more pressing issue: the car won't start. The starter sounds horrible. Sounds just like it is trying to turn the engine over but there is a huge drag on the engine. The battery is charged completely. The engine does spin, but slowly.

So, what do you think? Is the starter done for, or is the engine dragging.

Warning: terrible sounds to be heard!!

Alan

Measure the voltage at the jump post while trying to start - It seems to be rotating too slowly?

If the jump post voltage is too low (~<9v) - I'd suspect the ground strap or other connections at battery <-> starter

dr bob

Try rolling the engine by hand with a breaker bar to make sure it actually wants to turn. Check the crankshaft endplay if it's at all stiff. Release the thrust loading, and see what kind of axial pressure is on is on the crank first, of course.

This hard cranking is one of the telltale signs of thrust bearing failure.


Of course it could just be the starter motor. But rolling the engine by hand is easier than pulling the starter.

FiveElements

Dang... hopefully it's just a bad starter. That sound is eerie. It does seem like the engine is dragging, not the starter.

WallyP

Sounds as if there is little or no compression, but serious drag. First thing that I would check is timing belt condition/cam timing.

Hilton

Can you disconnect the starter solenoid circuit and see what the starter sounds like when its not engaging the engine? (or possibly just use jump leads to power the starter motor independently of the car)

Leon Speed

Yes it rotates slowly. Will check the voltage. It does sound rather like grind or drag though, but who knows.

I was able to spin the engine with a breaker bar before, felt the same as when I did the TB service two years ago.

I cannot easily reach the flex plate since I never work under my car in my garage. Whenever I need to do drive to a place where you can rent a car lift. I have checked the flex plate and end play a few times the last years and always came up with .2mm. Installed a Pklamp last year for extra measure. Maybe I can slip my USB scope through the bell housing spy hole to see if the clamp moved forward from last time.

Tell me about it! It sounds really nasty.

Wally, excellent ears! In the vid the plugs are out. I removed them to check the cylinders. Apart from some carbon buildup in cylinder 5 everything looks normal. No fuel, no oil, no coolant, just some carbon. Very first thing I did was check if I could see the timing belt through the vent holes. Also I noticed that while cranking the oil pressure gauge slowly moves to 4 bar.


Thanks for the tip. I need to find out how our starters are wired then.

19psi

It's good to hear that you've checked the crankshaft end play in the past.

If it's not the starter, I'd start removing belts from accessories like the PS pump, A/C compressor, smog pump etc. Hopefully something as simple as a frozen bearing in one of them.
It could also be a water pump seizing up. I'd really avoid cranking it over until I found the cause.

Leon Speed

Accessories and water pump crossed my mind, but I could spin the engine pretty easily by hand today. Heard a metalic noise coming from the direction of the starter, then all quiet. I assume the starter was stuck on the ring gear. Tomorrow the starter comes out to test. Didn't have the heart to crank it again and measure the voltage drop.

Mrmerlin

Sadly, from the video your timing has been lost as there isnt any compression.

dont turn the engine over any more till you have the timing covers off and have verified the timing marks are all in alignment.
Once timing is verified , then check crank end play , then do a compression test.
NOTE the starter is good.

andy-gts

I think the plugs were out when the video was shot …..

Mrmerlin

Edit , Thanks Andy, I found the plugs are out info in post 7, sorry my bad.............


I think the plugs were out when the video was shot …..

^^^^that would be an important thing to include along with the video.

If thats the case , no plugs then , a flex plate release and crank end play check should be made .

NOTE a quick check would be to use a lamp cord dropped down the dipstick tube,
drip the oil onto a piece of black cardboard,
look at the sample in the sun with a magnifying glass,
if its full of metal then the thrust bearing has taken a dump

Leon Speed

double post

Leon Speed

Sorry, didn't realize the sound without plugs would be a red flag for the knowledgeable here.

Anyway, I inspected the flex plate area with a USB scope. The flex plate looks straight and the spines on the torque shaft are the same as last year as indicated by the red paint. It´s the best I can do without a lift.




And the starter is out. What a pain once again to get to the allen head screws. I tried to test it by putting 12V directly top stud on the solenoid, nothing happened. Do I need to supply 12V to the small connector as well to trip the solenoid? Then I applied 12V to the bottom stud of the solenoid, out of 7 tries the motor spun twice, 5 times I got a great spark show without any movement. Not keen on sparks flying, is there another way to test this thing?

Mrmerlin

the way the starter works is like this with the unit on the ground connect a negative jumper cable to one of the ears of the starter.
then with the positive lead connect it to the + stud ,l

take a small jumper wire and connect it to the + jumper cable clamp,

then touch the small 15 feed of the solenoid this will activate the starter.
Hold on to it when you do this.
NOTE its better to have the starter in a vice.