Serious "PUCKER" moment!!!
01-06-2014 | 05:38 PM
#46
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 492
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From: Mesa, Arizona, USA
Dude, when did the expression of an opinion become a lie? We are all called upon to make judgments about things for which we have no definitive proof. We typically do this several times a day. Saying "X is better than Y" is not a lie (unless the speaker knows X is not better than Y). Failing to preface the statement with "In my opinion" does not make the statement a lie. In informal settings, we seldom list all the caveats and exceptions that might apply to what's being said. Such expressions only muck up the conversation. Under such circumstances, pointing out that someone failed to identify something as a personal opinion is the work of pedant. Calling someone a liar over such a "lapse" is worse than pedantry.
01-06-2014 | 05:49 PM
#47
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,674
Likes: 40
From: Minneapolis, Minnesota
This issue can be fixed by bolting the tensioner wire to the block.
Perhaps someone can show that the PKT, or even PKT "Black," can maintain more consistent tension while the belt stretches than the stock tensioner.
The #1 problem with the stock tensioner is that there are so many of them. Lots of anecdotes.
Perhaps someone can show that the PKT, or even PKT "Black," can maintain more consistent tension while the belt stretches than the stock tensioner.
The #1 problem with the stock tensioner is that there are so many of them. Lots of anecdotes.
01-06-2014 | 05:51 PM
#48
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,164
Likes: 5
From: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Dude, when did the expression of an opinion become a lie? We are all called upon to make judgments about things for which we have no definitive proof. We typically do this several times a day. Saying "X is better than Y" is not a lie (unless the speaker knows X is not better than Y). Failing to preface the statement with "In my opinion" does not make the statement a lie. In informal settings, we seldom list all the caveats and exceptions that might apply to what's being said. Such expressions only muck up the conversation. Under such circumstances, pointing out that someone failed to identify something as a personal opinion is the work of pedant. Calling someone a liar over such a "lapse" is worse than pedantry.
To say something as fact without knowing it is fact is tantamount to lying. Maybe not in the strictest legal sense, but when you are in a technical forum preference should be placed on known facts over opinion.
01-06-2014 | 05:52 PM
#49
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Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
01-06-2014 | 05:57 PM
#50
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Joined: Apr 2006
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I'm having a wonderful day actually and if ya tried to hug me it might not end well for ya.
When you call me a liar, multiple times and say you want data when it is clear you want zero data. I will take offense and call you out on it. Hell, you had no idea that Porsche changed the tensioning system multiple times.
I know, not opinion, that it prolongs the belt/gear life. I've got two dozen cars here over the past 6 years with these on there. With used and new gears. Three test bed cars that I've kept logs on showing wear on the gears. Just because I don't get paid to do what you do for a living does not mean you know a **** load more about this than I do. Do I have presentable data to show you via power point or in a way you'd accept? Nope, and am not going to gather that for you either.
Keep saying I'm lying and using scare tactic with out anything to back it up, I will call you out like I do when you present bad advice.
When you call me a liar, multiple times and say you want data when it is clear you want zero data. I will take offense and call you out on it. Hell, you had no idea that Porsche changed the tensioning system multiple times.
Clearly you need to calm down. I am sorry you are having a bad day. I can send you an e-hug if it will make you feel better.
You are free to express your opinions as am I. If you don't agree with my opinion or the facts I present, feel free to discuss why in a polite manner. No need to be rude.
There is more than one reason to choose one system over another. You also have to keep in mind that Audi uses steel gears and not aluminum ones. There are so many differences in the two engines that one cannot take any one factor and draw any conclusions. They chose what they did for multitude of reasons.
In fact, I will say that from an engineering point of view if you look at the single value of dynamic tension it would APPEAR the Audi one is superior. This is of course only one factor. The biggest issue is the difference between the two systems. Is the change in tension significant enough to warrant the use of a different tensioner? If the belt life is the same it means you are doing the same work with no benefit. If it extends the life of the belt then that would be easy to quantify. But to be clear, Audi recommends belt changes from 125,000km to 150,000km , so even theirs doesn't do that. Is it enough to warrant the change? Some think yes. I do not.
On top of that, there are other weak points in the system that warrant a low tension alarm system. This overrides the (in my opinion) very small benefit of dynamic tension benefits.
You are free to express your opinions as am I. If you don't agree with my opinion or the facts I present, feel free to discuss why in a polite manner. No need to be rude.
There is more than one reason to choose one system over another. You also have to keep in mind that Audi uses steel gears and not aluminum ones. There are so many differences in the two engines that one cannot take any one factor and draw any conclusions. They chose what they did for multitude of reasons.
In fact, I will say that from an engineering point of view if you look at the single value of dynamic tension it would APPEAR the Audi one is superior. This is of course only one factor. The biggest issue is the difference between the two systems. Is the change in tension significant enough to warrant the use of a different tensioner? If the belt life is the same it means you are doing the same work with no benefit. If it extends the life of the belt then that would be easy to quantify. But to be clear, Audi recommends belt changes from 125,000km to 150,000km , so even theirs doesn't do that. Is it enough to warrant the change? Some think yes. I do not.
On top of that, there are other weak points in the system that warrant a low tension alarm system. This overrides the (in my opinion) very small benefit of dynamic tension benefits.
Keep saying I'm lying and using scare tactic with out anything to back it up, I will call you out like I do when you present bad advice.
01-06-2014 | 06:00 PM
#51
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 25,152
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The original "tensioner" doesn't really tension so much as "adjust" to a preset unit, the tension on the belt. As the Car warms or cools, the dozen or so bi-metallic washers in the casing change their length, thereby changing the overall tension.
Fact: This is independent of what is actually happening with the overall length of the belt from stretching. It is not related. It is related specifically to engine heat. Belt stretch is much more dynamic and is time/heat/use/rpms. This is "ignored" by the OEM tension system. The solution used by most over the last 30 years is.... "Tighten'er up!"
Does it work when perfectly adjusted? (honestly, you have to adjust it at least every few thousand miles) Yes.
Fact: The aftermarket solution ( I have not heard of the "black" version) actually tensions the belt. As the belt heats up, stretches because of heat or wear or both, or when the minute changes happen to the belt route because of tooth decay in the system - the tensioner pushes the running pulley against the belt at the same tension as needed.
Fact: The latter system is used throughout OEM ecosystem today. The former is NOT.
Fact: This is independent of what is actually happening with the overall length of the belt from stretching. It is not related. It is related specifically to engine heat. Belt stretch is much more dynamic and is time/heat/use/rpms. This is "ignored" by the OEM tension system. The solution used by most over the last 30 years is.... "Tighten'er up!"
Does it work when perfectly adjusted? (honestly, you have to adjust it at least every few thousand miles) Yes.
Fact: The aftermarket solution ( I have not heard of the "black" version) actually tensions the belt. As the belt heats up, stretches because of heat or wear or both, or when the minute changes happen to the belt route because of tooth decay in the system - the tensioner pushes the running pulley against the belt at the same tension as needed.
Fact: The latter system is used throughout OEM ecosystem today. The former is NOT.
01-06-2014 | 06:10 PM
#52
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,164
Likes: 5
From: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
When you call me a liar, multiple times and say you want data when it is clear you want zero data.
I know, not opinion, that it prolongs the belt/gear life. I've got two dozen cars here over the past 6 years with these on there. With used and new gears. Three test bed cars that I've kept logs on showing wear on the gears. Just because I don't get paid to do what you do for a living does not mean you know a **** load more about this than I do. Do I have presentable data to show you via power point or in a way you'd accept? Nope, and am not going to gather that for you either.
I know, not opinion, that it prolongs the belt/gear life. I've got two dozen cars here over the past 6 years with these on there. With used and new gears. Three test bed cars that I've kept logs on showing wear on the gears. Just because I don't get paid to do what you do for a living does not mean you know a **** load more about this than I do. Do I have presentable data to show you via power point or in a way you'd accept? Nope, and am not going to gather that for you either.
If you don't want to give me your data there are only a few reasons for that. One is the data proves my point. So considering one other reason could be that you are petty and childish (which I hope and don't really think you are) then I guess I would have assume the former.
Not sure why you would assume this? You cannot know what I know about the changes to the Porsche tensioner as I have never made any claim to that. But you know what happens when you assume, right?
01-06-2014 | 06:15 PM
#53
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 35,700
Likes: 503
I used the word liar once. I have left that comment there because for those who care to read it in context, it has the meaning I intended. For those who want to use it out of context, i feel sorry for you.
If you don't want to give me your data there are only a few reasons for that. One is the data proves my point. So considering one other reason could be that you are petty and childish (which I hope and don't really think you are) then I guess I would have assume the former.
Not sure why you would assume this? You cannot know what I know about the changes to the Porsche tensioner as I have never made any claim to that. But you know what happens when you assume, right?
If you don't want to give me your data there are only a few reasons for that. One is the data proves my point. So considering one other reason could be that you are petty and childish (which I hope and don't really think you are) then I guess I would have assume the former.
Not sure why you would assume this? You cannot know what I know about the changes to the Porsche tensioner as I have never made any claim to that. But you know what happens when you assume, right?
I have no desire to go out of my way to try and make you understand something you don't want to. It has nothing to do with being petty and childish. Again, please tell the court how I'm lying and using scare tactics. It's not a scientific study and you will dismiss it anyway.
01-06-2014 | 06:15 PM
#54
Nordschleife Master
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,164
Likes: 5
From: Guelph, Ontario, Canada
The original "tensioner" doesn't really tension so much as "adjust" to a preset unit, the tension on the belt. As the Car warms or cools, the dozen or so bi-metallic washers in the casing change their length, thereby changing the overall tension.
Fact: This is independent of what is actually happening with the overall length of the belt from stretching. It is not related. It is related specifically to engine heat. Belt stretch is much more dynamic and is time/heat/use/rpms. This is "ignored" by the OEM tension system. The solution used by most over the last 30 years is.... "Tighten'er up!"
Does it work when perfectly adjusted? (honestly, you have to adjust it at least every few thousand miles) Yes.
Fact: The aftermarket solution ( I have not heard of the "black" version) actually tensions the belt. As the belt heats up, stretches because of heat or wear or both, or when the minute changes happen to the belt route because of tooth decay in the system - the tensioner pushes the running pulley against the belt at the same tension as needed.
Fact: The latter system is used throughout OEM ecosystem today. The former is NOT.
Fact: This is independent of what is actually happening with the overall length of the belt from stretching. It is not related. It is related specifically to engine heat. Belt stretch is much more dynamic and is time/heat/use/rpms. This is "ignored" by the OEM tension system. The solution used by most over the last 30 years is.... "Tighten'er up!"
Does it work when perfectly adjusted? (honestly, you have to adjust it at least every few thousand miles) Yes.
Fact: The aftermarket solution ( I have not heard of the "black" version) actually tensions the belt. As the belt heats up, stretches because of heat or wear or both, or when the minute changes happen to the belt route because of tooth decay in the system - the tensioner pushes the running pulley against the belt at the same tension as needed.
Fact: The latter system is used throughout OEM ecosystem today. The former is NOT.
Also you should note that the newer systems don't have oil pumps running off of the timing belt either.
And as an added thought, VW/Audi have gone back to chains instead of belts on their newest engines. So belts are bad.......
01-06-2014 | 06:24 PM
#55
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,402
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From: California
Well, we are all stuck with the damn belt system, and we can all make up our own minds as to the benefits and pitfalls of the two tension systems. I for one am interested in this "black" version. Roger, you are keeping us in suspense! Divulge!
01-06-2014 | 06:57 PM
#59
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 25,152
Likes: 87
The statement in red is the main point I make in reguards to this whole discussion.
Also you should note that the newer systems don't have oil pumps running off of the timing belt either.
And as an added thought, VW/Audi have gone back to chains instead of belts on their newest engines. So belts are bad.......
Also you should note that the newer systems don't have oil pumps running off of the timing belt either.
And as an added thought, VW/Audi have gone back to chains instead of belts on their newest engines. So belts are bad.......
This goes to the core of Porsche think. Chains are better. But Porsche wanted a front-of-engine that was less complex, or didn't want to change the block, or whatever, so did the "Easier" thing but made it more complex in the end. They do that alot. In 1985, many other cars had chains. Dual Chains even. And guess who uses chains now? Porsche.
And my statement in Red (your emphasis) is about how its supposed to work in a perfect world. I have had 12 928s. None of those damn tensioners were working properly when I got the car. This is a funny story from Roger as the OP as I have had numerous 928s send off the hated red light for the tension alarm. Its like a god damn throttle stop of speed limiter. Why?
Because the fcking thing is not tensioning the belt. Its just keeping it in place based on a fixed unit of distance in relation to a thread bolt And when the washer change, the distance changes. There is no tensioning going on. Its just an allowance for heat changes. Not stretch or wear based on a dynamic distance from one wheel under tension to two fixed points.
I am no longer shocked. I no longer let off. I inspect and keep going until I go in and replace the pieces.
