Innovate LC-1 WB in simulated NB output question
01-03-2014, 11:38 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Innovate LC-1 WB in simulated NB output question
Now that my GTS 5-spd has been somewhat tickled:
- GT cams
- X-pipe
- GT small resonators exhaust
- RMB
- JDS PEMs into both ECUs
it is time to remap it. I am thinking about getting the Innovate LC-1 to work with my Shark Tuner. Question I have though - how have you guys found the simulated NB output. Is it adequate to work with the LH in closed loop mode, or I would have to keep the stock NB Bosch sensor in place too?
Many thanks in advance
Alex
- GT cams
- X-pipe
- GT small resonators exhaust
- RMB
- JDS PEMs into both ECUs
it is time to remap it. I am thinking about getting the Innovate LC-1 to work with my Shark Tuner. Question I have though - how have you guys found the simulated NB output. Is it adequate to work with the LH in closed loop mode, or I would have to keep the stock NB Bosch sensor in place too?
Many thanks in advance
Alex
01-03-2014, 11:41 AM
#2
Keep the NB and put the WB in the other bung on the X-pipe.
01-03-2014, 11:44 AM
#3
Administrator - "Tyson"
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
What Sean said. Keep a dedicated narrow band for the LH / EZK to use.
01-03-2014, 11:48 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
OK,
The X-pipe is UK made and only has one bung, but by the sounds of it, the Innovate NB output is not good enough, and given the source of the advise
I would follow it...
I think I would use the WB just to remap the car on the road, and then install the NB one back into the bung in closed loop mode. And then the WB will go on to live in my 944 Turbo S race car together with a proper AFR gauge...
Many thanks!
Alex
The X-pipe is UK made and only has one bung, but by the sounds of it, the Innovate NB output is not good enough, and given the source of the advise
I would follow it... I think I would use the WB just to remap the car on the road, and then install the NB one back into the bung in closed loop mode. And then the WB will go on to live in my 944 Turbo S race car together with a proper AFR gauge...
Many thanks!
Alex
01-03-2014, 05:26 PM
#6
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
If the LC-1 errors out and you don't have the default NB value programmed, the LH can/will do odd things to the AFR, possibly causing the engine to stall.
Speaking of which: (LC-1 firmware for Error 8, 4)
Speaking of which: (LC-1 firmware for Error 8, 4)
01-03-2014, 05:44 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Alex,
The LC-1's NBsim output works fine as a replacement for a separate O2-sensor when there is only one bung. That said, using a separate NBO2-sensor with a second bung is always a good idea when possible, just to have the ability to cross-check. WBO2 sensors need calibration and are more subject to drift, so having a separate NBO2 sensor for verification is helpful.
But for a specific tuning project then sure, replace the NBO2 sensor with the wideband (after a fresh air-cal), tune the car and then swap back. You can also just leave the NBO2 input to the LH disconnected for tuning, the LH will then ignore it and you can tune open-loop without the "help" of the NBO2.
Cheers, Jim
The LC-1's NBsim output works fine as a replacement for a separate O2-sensor when there is only one bung. That said, using a separate NBO2-sensor with a second bung is always a good idea when possible, just to have the ability to cross-check. WBO2 sensors need calibration and are more subject to drift, so having a separate NBO2 sensor for verification is helpful.
But for a specific tuning project then sure, replace the NBO2 sensor with the wideband (after a fresh air-cal), tune the car and then swap back. You can also just leave the NBO2 input to the LH disconnected for tuning, the LH will then ignore it and you can tune open-loop without the "help" of the NBO2.
Cheers, Jim
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01-04-2014, 03:56 AM
#9
Nordschleife Master
I wonder how hard it would be to make the LH "happy" with a wideband input?
More than just the rich / lean its something about timing isn't it? Seems like that should be possible to compensate for.
More than just the rich / lean its something about timing isn't it? Seems like that should be possible to compensate for.
01-04-2014, 04:55 AM
#10
The LC-1 simulated NB-signal works fine with the factory setting of the NB-curve.
I am using it for many years now and as long as the LC-1 works, everything is fine.
One thing can be a problem, though: the NB-sim output signal during sensor warm up must be set for the LH to recognize that the sensor signal is not yet valid.
For cold starts this is not important as the LH ignores the sensor signal anyway but after a warm or hot-start any voltage is interpreted as valid oxygen sensor signal and results in changes of the mixture.
The LC-1 can be programmed to go into a high-impedance mode during sensor warm up but this feature has repeatedly failed on 3 consecutive LC-1 units.
Once the failure occurs, instead of going to high-impedance, the LC-1 sends an arbitrary voltage to the LH which is then interpreted as oxygen sensor signal. That causes the mixture to run (depending on the voltage) to the rich stop or lean stop of the oxygen correction for the first 20 seconds or so after starting the engine. After the sensor is warmed up, it takes some additional time for the mixture to settle again. So you might e.g. get an extremely hunting idle for a minute or two after a warm start.
That can be annoying and seems to be a weakness of the LC-1 as it happened to me with several units.
To eliminate this problem, I added a home made delay unit in the wire between the NB-sim output and the LH sensor input so that the LC-1 can do whatever it wants for the first 30 seconds after each start.
I am still using the LC-1 with the WBO sensor and the simulated NBO output but if you have the possibility to add the second bung to the exhaust, I would strongly recommend to do so to avoid adding the LC-1 as another critical component to the engine control loop.
_________
Kurt
90 S4 satin black metallic
OC Charter Member
I am using it for many years now and as long as the LC-1 works, everything is fine.
One thing can be a problem, though: the NB-sim output signal during sensor warm up must be set for the LH to recognize that the sensor signal is not yet valid.
For cold starts this is not important as the LH ignores the sensor signal anyway but after a warm or hot-start any voltage is interpreted as valid oxygen sensor signal and results in changes of the mixture.
The LC-1 can be programmed to go into a high-impedance mode during sensor warm up but this feature has repeatedly failed on 3 consecutive LC-1 units.
Once the failure occurs, instead of going to high-impedance, the LC-1 sends an arbitrary voltage to the LH which is then interpreted as oxygen sensor signal. That causes the mixture to run (depending on the voltage) to the rich stop or lean stop of the oxygen correction for the first 20 seconds or so after starting the engine. After the sensor is warmed up, it takes some additional time for the mixture to settle again. So you might e.g. get an extremely hunting idle for a minute or two after a warm start.
That can be annoying and seems to be a weakness of the LC-1 as it happened to me with several units.
To eliminate this problem, I added a home made delay unit in the wire between the NB-sim output and the LH sensor input so that the LC-1 can do whatever it wants for the first 30 seconds after each start.
I am still using the LC-1 with the WBO sensor and the simulated NBO output but if you have the possibility to add the second bung to the exhaust, I would strongly recommend to do so to avoid adding the LC-1 as another critical component to the engine control loop.
_________
Kurt
90 S4 satin black metallic
OC Charter Member
Last edited by kurt_1; 01-04-2014 at 05:38 AM. Reason: clarification
01-04-2014, 02:02 PM
#11
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The non-cat CO adjusting input might be used, or coding plug pos. 4 is a variable voltage (resistance) input for selecting different maps. I think either could be reused for a 0~5 volt analog input from a WBO2 controller. Then you could have WOT or lean burn feedback plus regular adaptation.
(Eventually, I would like to bypass the coding plug code and reuse the inputs for S4 chip options.)
01-04-2014, 04:31 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
I've found turning ignition on, then buckling up seat belt, adjusting seat, etc. before starting engine provides plenty of time for the WBO2 to warm up and provide a good NB.
01-05-2014, 06:09 AM
#13
In my case the LC-1 is supplied by the original sensor heater wire. This is powered only when the engine is running (fuel pump relay). The idea was to replicate the original setup where the heater would shut off if the engine stopped running for some reason.
_________
Kurt
90 S4 satin black metallic
OC Charter Member
01-08-2014, 03:07 PM
#14
The LC-1 simulated NB-signal works fine with the factory setting of the NB-curve.
I am using it for many years now and as long as the LC-1 works, everything is fine.
One thing can be a problem, though: the NB-sim output signal during sensor warm up must be set for the LH to recognize that the sensor signal is not yet valid.
For cold starts this is not important as the LH ignores the sensor signal anyway but after a warm or hot-start any voltage is interpreted as valid oxygen sensor signal and results in changes of the mixture.
The LC-1 can be programmed to go into a high-impedance mode during sensor warm up but this feature has repeatedly failed on 3 consecutive LC-1 units.
Once the failure occurs, instead of going to high-impedance, the LC-1 sends an arbitrary voltage to the LH which is then interpreted as oxygen sensor signal. That causes the mixture to run (depending on the voltage) to the rich stop or lean stop of the oxygen correction for the first 20 seconds or so after starting the engine. After the sensor is warmed up, it takes some additional time for the mixture to settle again. So you might e.g. get an extremely hunting idle for a minute or two after a warm start.
That can be annoying and seems to be a weakness of the LC-1 as it happened to me with several units.
To eliminate this problem, I added a home made delay unit in the wire between the NB-sim output and the LH sensor input so that the LC-1 can do whatever it wants for the first 30 seconds after each start.
I am still using the LC-1 with the WBO sensor and the simulated NBO output but if you have the possibility to add the second bung to the exhaust, I would strongly recommend to do so to avoid adding the LC-1 as another critical component to the engine control loop.
_________
Kurt
90 S4 satin black metallic
OC Charter Member
I am using it for many years now and as long as the LC-1 works, everything is fine.
One thing can be a problem, though: the NB-sim output signal during sensor warm up must be set for the LH to recognize that the sensor signal is not yet valid.
For cold starts this is not important as the LH ignores the sensor signal anyway but after a warm or hot-start any voltage is interpreted as valid oxygen sensor signal and results in changes of the mixture.
The LC-1 can be programmed to go into a high-impedance mode during sensor warm up but this feature has repeatedly failed on 3 consecutive LC-1 units.
Once the failure occurs, instead of going to high-impedance, the LC-1 sends an arbitrary voltage to the LH which is then interpreted as oxygen sensor signal. That causes the mixture to run (depending on the voltage) to the rich stop or lean stop of the oxygen correction for the first 20 seconds or so after starting the engine. After the sensor is warmed up, it takes some additional time for the mixture to settle again. So you might e.g. get an extremely hunting idle for a minute or two after a warm start.
That can be annoying and seems to be a weakness of the LC-1 as it happened to me with several units.
To eliminate this problem, I added a home made delay unit in the wire between the NB-sim output and the LH sensor input so that the LC-1 can do whatever it wants for the first 30 seconds after each start.
I am still using the LC-1 with the WBO sensor and the simulated NBO output but if you have the possibility to add the second bung to the exhaust, I would strongly recommend to do so to avoid adding the LC-1 as another critical component to the engine control loop.
_________
Kurt
90 S4 satin black metallic
OC Charter Member
01-09-2014, 03:40 AM
#15
My pleasure Ralph.
It took me quite a while to figure this out and I have to thank John Speake for his patient assistance, bench testing my units and sending me LH and EZK and MAFs and whatnot for troubleshooting in my car.
Since this problem happened with several LC-1s, I think this is a weakness of the output circuitry when it is forced into high-Z condition. Instead of high impedance, the voltage starts to creep up over time. Below 0.5V the mixture runs towards rich (which is hardly noticable). If it reaches 0.6V, the idle hunting starts.
Once this happens, the output of the LC-1 seems to be corrupted and you cannot set a fixed voltage during warm-up, either. I also found that the normal lambda readings are also affected a bit, probably shifted up in voltage and after a new LC-1 was fittted, slight re-tuning of the maps (about 2-3%) was necessary.
If the high-Z setting is not used, the LC-1 seem to work well over a long time. For those who want to use the NBO-sim (and the output is still working correctly) it might be useful to try and set the output voltage to 0.5 V during warm up.
Apparently, the LH interprets this as "neutral" (neither rich nor lean) and simply does nothing in terms of lambda correction. At least this worked for me before I added the delay unit.
_________
Kurt
90 S4 satin black metallic
OC Charter Member
It took me quite a while to figure this out and I have to thank John Speake for his patient assistance, bench testing my units and sending me LH and EZK and MAFs and whatnot for troubleshooting in my car.
Since this problem happened with several LC-1s, I think this is a weakness of the output circuitry when it is forced into high-Z condition. Instead of high impedance, the voltage starts to creep up over time. Below 0.5V the mixture runs towards rich (which is hardly noticable). If it reaches 0.6V, the idle hunting starts.
Once this happens, the output of the LC-1 seems to be corrupted and you cannot set a fixed voltage during warm-up, either. I also found that the normal lambda readings are also affected a bit, probably shifted up in voltage and after a new LC-1 was fittted, slight re-tuning of the maps (about 2-3%) was necessary.
If the high-Z setting is not used, the LC-1 seem to work well over a long time. For those who want to use the NBO-sim (and the output is still working correctly) it might be useful to try and set the output voltage to 0.5 V during warm up.
Apparently, the LH interprets this as "neutral" (neither rich nor lean) and simply does nothing in terms of lambda correction. At least this worked for me before I added the delay unit.
_________
Kurt
90 S4 satin black metallic
OC Charter Member
