hacker-pschorr

I apologize for that part of my comment but I still say you oversimplify the conversion. The fact that you have yet to completely figure out the cold start speaks volumes, since that can be the most difficult part.

Ship your 928 to Green Bay right now and we'll see how it runs in 5 degree temps, then again at 15, 25, 30etc..... Then the next batch of e85 is 20% less ethanol and your maps are all off and the car doesn't want to start again.... rinse / repeat.

I know some people have this down to a science because they've converted many cars and / or perfected at least one......

I know you've talked to Todd and I'm guessing he's shared with you some of the trials and tribulations they've gone through converting cars over. Yet you still come on here and say how easy it is to a group where 90% have no clue how to fine tune a 928 on pump gas, much less converting to ethanol.

Tony

Re E85

I guess you would have to ask...or calculate if you could, what the advantage of running e85 would be in your application Andrew.

Point being that you already have the SC max'd out on RPM/boost so that is a "constant"..

the variable now is the timing advance.
How much could you add...and more importantly what HP gains would really be seen from doing it?
are you going to get 30hp fby going from 26' to 30' etc....or just 15....or 10hp....is it worth it?
You can only advance the timing so far I would imagine, then you get into other issues.

FWIW..i would leave the e85 alone and stay with what you have for now. Mess with it later. Save $$$ and time and get your current engine going again.


Pretty cool picture of the SC manifold. I always wondered where/how the bypass valve was fitted.

BC

Well...

First, your 044 pumps may not like it for a long time. I think Todd is using them though, so my experience with the normal bosch pumps may not be the same. Recently I have had some bad luck with the bosch pumps and ethanol. When I ran new pumps in 2008 and 2009 with e85 I would have no issues.

More recently on the 85 and this other 86 I have the pump have not actually done so well. One was new and one was used but relatively new. So the bosch pump may have to be switched for a fuelab pump, which are ethanol compatible.

SO the first thing I would do is change your fuel lines to the flouro-based rubber type. I think Roger sells them if I am not incorrect. That is – in the engine bay. Since your engine is out, it’s a no brainer really. Get the SS screen from Murph for the tank output.

The injector types are fine mostly, except you need to be ready to increase fuel by up to 40% in some cases at WOT (not cruise – you can go lean at cruise and light part throttle from my experience – just must properly enrich when you put your foot in it enough) So the injectors have to be big. If you are using 42s I’d say you have to somehow make it work with 60s or 72s. I went to 36lb injectors on a stock S3 and it was happy.

The fuel lines are basically okay. Some say that the bare aluminum is bad with ethanol. It’s not corrosive so much as being conductive (because it has water in it). And very clean. It will scour clean the lines and then never allow the aluminum to create its natural oxide barrier.

The larger concern is the fuel rails and the metal fittings. They rust in the presence of water, and water is in ethanol because is hydrophilic. SO I had to buy new injector filter baskets because they usually fill with rust over the first couple thousand miles of ethanol use. That’s stops though, which may mean it was just deposits on the lines.

On the tuning side, if you have increased the size of the injector appropriately, then the issue is going to be NOT when the 02 sensor is acting in the loop, but when its NOT acting in the loop. At idle and part throttle you may have to hit some learning on the cells in idle and cruise and part throttle so it doesn’t have so much correction for the req fuel. But at WOT you need to carefully find out with the WB how much the req fuel will be with your package.

The boost in my research ( I don’t have the supercharger attached to the cars yet) will react in such a way to be very forgiving to the fuel amount. A wide range will be acceptable. I don’t remember discussing this with Todd recently, so I don’t have his input into this.

The timing WILL be where you can have some room - its great for this. Its most of the reason to do it, and to be completely rid of detonation in your engine package. I was never able to change the timing on the LH cars, but I did on the L-jet cars and it really takes it well obviously.

My next go is to use a small microsquirt on a 86.5 car I am building a test engine for. S3 bottom and S4 heads. Should be a hoot. If its blows up, so what. Its all used parts, even the bearing shells (new rod bearings and new lifters though) I have a thread for it but have not updated it. Many things have gotten in the way of finishing that car, but it should be at least running by July.


It was a suggestion, not an order. But I know where you live its very cheap and very plentiful.

BC

That is a rational point. Many rational points.

If the rpm/boost is indeed already at his limit with the hardware then changing the fuel would only be for:

1) Knock removal
2) Ability to advance timing
3)5% increase in power level strictly from fuel not including timing.
4) testing and research

BC

Apology accepted. The lowest it gets here is 40 degrees. I have started fine in 40 degrees. It takes a few more (several more) revolutions of the engine to get it going, and it seems as though I need to add MORE fuel not less when its a cold start to keep it running. By the time its warm in 3 minutes its fine.

I made a decision to live where it doesn't get any colder than that.

I wanted to separate the thoughts about the mix changes. Yes, the mix changes, especially where you are ( I spoke to Luke once several years ago). But the 50% and 85% mixes don't need timing changes (they may) so much as you need changes to the req fuel. I recent paper I read shows that the knock resistance is about the same.

I didn't say it was tic tac toe. I said "In michigan and the midwest I would only run e85 instead of reducing the effective efficiency of the motor package with lower compression. "

And I said "I just don't see a problem"

When something is a challenge it does not mean its a problem.

AO

Brendan,

Thanks for all that input. I'm sure there will be more. I need to digest things a bit more, but on it's face, it sounds like the only thing I would need to change would be the fuel lines and install some injector screens. I already run open loop and have Murf's ultra awesome fuel strainer. Also have a WB plumed.

The 42# injectors probably won't be big enough for WOT, but will be for cruise and low boost. I don't remember what my current WOT advance is, but it's not much. 17* comes to mind on 12psi. I should easily be able get it back into the mid to upper 20's if I ran e85 and pick up an additional 20-40RWHP!

Hmmm... now I'm really thinking hard about this.

What's the worst case here? I spend some $$ on fuel lines and a set of bigger injectors. If it doesn't work out, I can always swap in the 42# injectors and go back to 93 octane. What am I missing?

As for cold starts... I rarely run this thing in the cold. I do go the Green Bay in the Spring and Fall and can be chilly there, but nothing where it would pose a problem that I can see. And I would have the ability to switch to 93 on the fly if ever needed.

C'mon... talk me out of it. I dare you guys.

ptuomov

For one, if you turn up the boost, you may find out that you need a new ignition system. Second, the 85% ethanol may completely unexpectedly hurt any soft components that it comes in contact with. Also, I wouldn't go to E85 without an ECU that has a flexfuel sensor.

Look at the pile of money and hours you need to spend to convert to E85 and then figure out what else could you do with that time and money that would make your car go faster. If you can't think of anything else better or if you have an unlimited budget of both, go ahead.

AO

Can't turn up the boost without some $ignificant changes! Next.

Okay... the second part of this is actually pretty good. Is there any data on the how divergent e85 is from place to place?

Well everything is apart. So the only money I see right now is fuel hoses and injectors. Okay... some dyno time might be in there too.

As for other ways to make the car go faster? Lighten the crap out of it. Fix the intercooler. Spray meth. So there are options.

Actually the coding plug switch was originally intended to go with a meth kit so I could run boost + meth and advance the timing. But have the flexibility to switch back to "no meth" should I run out.

That is still on the table. Probably the same cost as doing the e85. Maybe less.

AO

Ok... Got the SCer apart. Took some heat and some prying, but it's apart. Doesn't look all that pretty, but it is functional. I also found the area of the leak in the Intercooler. I'll have to cut and drill to get the ICer out of its housing. Now is the time to rethink the ICer if I want to. I have the Kenne Bell ICer, but not sure if I can make it work.

Pics... That's what you guys are for anyway, right?





Here you can see where water is dribbling out of the field of the ICer. The root to all my problems.

andy-gts

this is an aside note....I read some time ago a paper that compared energy content of all concentration of ethanol and gas and it seems that e 30 has the most btu per volume...does this make a difference with any of your tuning or is this just mental masturba_____!

davek9

Andrew that IC looks in nice shape, how did you manage to put a hole in it

AO

How the eff do I know... I was actually expecting to see it leaking form someplace that I had molested. This is clearly a failure of the ICer.

So now I need to start looking for other ICers I can incorporate. I think this one is dead!

Probably should give DR a call.

Imo000

Is that JB Weld?

AO

No... "The Right Stuff" by Permatex. Basically black RTV in a Cheeze Whiz can. Works great for making gaskets and sealing intercoolers.

I've got a buddy who works at Ford looking at some things for me. As far as I'm concerned, this old intercooler is history.

drnick

How did this get to page three?!