Engine break in
10-04-2013, 10:25 AM
#16
Developer
I published that several years ago - (2008 it says) and those instructions are best intended for our steel-sleeved engine break-in.
I like the Brad-Penn line of oils now - 50% synthetic - use them myself - and there are several good break-in oils favored by the camshaft companies for that first hour.
...just took another look at that Engine Break-in Procedure, you are right, it's due for a refresher. That's the problem with publishing. The moment you put it in writing it begins to age.
Much simpler to publish nothing, then you can never be wrong! lol I'll update it.
But, it talks about a lot more than which oil to use (in fact it bearely mentions that at all) There is a lot of useful information in that article about the engine break-in procedure including bedding the pistons rings and pre-oiling the motor before the start (2 ways to do so). Still a helpful article.
If you want to see it, download it here: http://www.928motorsports.com/install.php
under the "Engine Products" section
I like the Brad-Penn line of oils now - 50% synthetic - use them myself - and there are several good break-in oils favored by the camshaft companies for that first hour.
...just took another look at that Engine Break-in Procedure, you are right, it's due for a refresher. That's the problem with publishing. The moment you put it in writing it begins to age.
Much simpler to publish nothing, then you can never be wrong! lol I'll update it.
But, it talks about a lot more than which oil to use (in fact it bearely mentions that at all) There is a lot of useful information in that article about the engine break-in procedure including bedding the pistons rings and pre-oiling the motor before the start (2 ways to do so). Still a helpful article.
If you want to see it, download it here: http://www.928motorsports.com/install.php
under the "Engine Products" section
Last edited by Carl Fausett; 10-04-2013 at 10:56 AM.
10-04-2013, 09:26 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
Here's a post by Greg Brown on the topic (thank you Greg!)
https://rennlist.com/forums/7157827-post10.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/7157827-post10.html
Here's what I do, but this is probably only valid for my engines and what I use to assemble them. This can vary considerably depending on many factors....for instance, if you use an engine assembly lube with lots of moly in it, you are going to have the oil filter plugged almost immediately after starting the engine and you are going need to change that filter after a couple of minutes...I never shut an engine off until it has run for at least 30 minutes....so I would not do this.
Use an oil with tons of zinc/phosphorus, especially if you are using stock lifters with stock/reground cams. If you are using new/reground cams, the lifters should also be new. If you are running old cams on old lifters, the lifters need to be in their original position. If you are using used lifters on new/reground cams...well it doesn't matter what you do in this case...you deserve it to fail....because you're an idiot. Torco TR-1 20/50, works great! Throw in an extra bottle of zinc/phosporus or buy Torco's special oil for running new engines....how could you go wrong with an oil made especially to start and run a new engine? Make sure you have plenty of oil in the engine.
Make sure that you are not delivering too much fuel to the engine. The rings are what you are trying to break-in....everything else you really can't do much about....you either assembled it right, or you did not. Too much fuel will kill the rings. If you have a stroker and are going to use bigger injectors....beg/borrow/steal a set of chips that have compensations for the bigger injectors...or start and run the car initially with the stock injectors.
Do not crank the engine over to get oil pressure. You should have pre-filled the oil filter, the oil lines, the accusump (if you have one) and any coolers. Cranking it over is going to wash out any of the assembly lube. Turn the key, crank it over, and let it start as soon as the injectors get fuel pressure. If you crank it over for more than 15 seconds and nothing happens...you screwed up. Hope that the problem a lack of fuel! You don't want excess fuel in the cylinders! You don't want excess fuel in the cylinders. You don't want excess fuel in the cylinders.
Let it run at 800-1000 rpms...only until the lifters get quiet. The lifters need to start to get quiet immediately! If there are a couple lifters that are still not filled completely, ignore them. If none of the lifters get quiet, you have no oil going to the lifters (Don't laugh! I had a customer start (actually a shop did this), run, dyno, take a stroker engine to the track with NO oil flow to the entire engine! They installed the oil check valve for the accusump backwards, with all of the oil flowing through the oil lines...this engine had a remote filter. Try and imagine what that pile of scrap metal looked like!)
Immediately after the lifters start to get quiet, get it running at 2,000 to 2,500 rpms. Check for leaks, check your gauges. Make sure sure you have plenty of oil pressure. Check to see that you are circulating water. Top off the water, at this time. Let it run for 30 minutes, steady state. Make sure the thermostat opens and the fans work. Monitor things continually. Now is not time for a beer! After 30 minutes, start to give it a few throttle "blips" to change the rpm and load. It will probably smoke some, when you first do this. After a few "blips" it should not smoke.
The rings are now broken in. the bearings have now done what they are going to do, and the camshafts are done with what they need to do. If you have oil smoke coming out of the tail pipe still...you are in trouble. Get out your tools and start taking the engine back out.
Shut it off, allow it to cool. Take care of any little problems you might have. Change the oil filter. Cut open and inspect the oil filter you just ran the engine on. If it is full of crap, find out what it is and why it is there. The oil whould be fine, unless you have internal engine problems. Your filter will "tell" you that. Now you can have a beer, if things went right. Stronger fluids can be used, if things went poorly.
Start it up again and run it at 2500 until it gets warm. If you have a chassis dyno, now is the time to start putting some load on it. If you don't...now is the time to go drive it and put some load on it. You can now start tuning. If you built it right and ran it right for the first 30 minutes, you really can't hurt it, from here on out.
Change the oil and this new filter after tuning/loading/etc. No hurry...leave it in there for 100 miles or so...or 100 miles of running. Make sur eyou check this oil filter for debris, too. It should be very clean!
Use an oil with tons of zinc/phosphorus, especially if you are using stock lifters with stock/reground cams. If you are using new/reground cams, the lifters should also be new. If you are running old cams on old lifters, the lifters need to be in their original position. If you are using used lifters on new/reground cams...well it doesn't matter what you do in this case...you deserve it to fail....because you're an idiot. Torco TR-1 20/50, works great! Throw in an extra bottle of zinc/phosporus or buy Torco's special oil for running new engines....how could you go wrong with an oil made especially to start and run a new engine? Make sure you have plenty of oil in the engine.
Make sure that you are not delivering too much fuel to the engine. The rings are what you are trying to break-in....everything else you really can't do much about....you either assembled it right, or you did not. Too much fuel will kill the rings. If you have a stroker and are going to use bigger injectors....beg/borrow/steal a set of chips that have compensations for the bigger injectors...or start and run the car initially with the stock injectors.
Do not crank the engine over to get oil pressure. You should have pre-filled the oil filter, the oil lines, the accusump (if you have one) and any coolers. Cranking it over is going to wash out any of the assembly lube. Turn the key, crank it over, and let it start as soon as the injectors get fuel pressure. If you crank it over for more than 15 seconds and nothing happens...you screwed up. Hope that the problem a lack of fuel! You don't want excess fuel in the cylinders! You don't want excess fuel in the cylinders. You don't want excess fuel in the cylinders.
Let it run at 800-1000 rpms...only until the lifters get quiet. The lifters need to start to get quiet immediately! If there are a couple lifters that are still not filled completely, ignore them. If none of the lifters get quiet, you have no oil going to the lifters (Don't laugh! I had a customer start (actually a shop did this), run, dyno, take a stroker engine to the track with NO oil flow to the entire engine! They installed the oil check valve for the accusump backwards, with all of the oil flowing through the oil lines...this engine had a remote filter. Try and imagine what that pile of scrap metal looked like!)
Immediately after the lifters start to get quiet, get it running at 2,000 to 2,500 rpms. Check for leaks, check your gauges. Make sure sure you have plenty of oil pressure. Check to see that you are circulating water. Top off the water, at this time. Let it run for 30 minutes, steady state. Make sure the thermostat opens and the fans work. Monitor things continually. Now is not time for a beer! After 30 minutes, start to give it a few throttle "blips" to change the rpm and load. It will probably smoke some, when you first do this. After a few "blips" it should not smoke.
The rings are now broken in. the bearings have now done what they are going to do, and the camshafts are done with what they need to do. If you have oil smoke coming out of the tail pipe still...you are in trouble. Get out your tools and start taking the engine back out.
Shut it off, allow it to cool. Take care of any little problems you might have. Change the oil filter. Cut open and inspect the oil filter you just ran the engine on. If it is full of crap, find out what it is and why it is there. The oil whould be fine, unless you have internal engine problems. Your filter will "tell" you that. Now you can have a beer, if things went right. Stronger fluids can be used, if things went poorly.
Start it up again and run it at 2500 until it gets warm. If you have a chassis dyno, now is the time to start putting some load on it. If you don't...now is the time to go drive it and put some load on it. You can now start tuning. If you built it right and ran it right for the first 30 minutes, you really can't hurt it, from here on out.
Change the oil and this new filter after tuning/loading/etc. No hurry...leave it in there for 100 miles or so...or 100 miles of running. Make sur eyou check this oil filter for debris, too. It should be very clean!
10-04-2013, 09:44 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
A quick google found this: Water-Cooled VW Performance Handbook: 3rd Edition
10-04-2013, 09:53 PM
#19
Former Sponsor
Yup. One of my best friends of all time. We went to junior high school and high school together. If he wanted me to make him a trick cylinder head for his lawn mower, I'd gladly do it, for him.
James specialty, was not actually writing or cars....he's a world class chef. He now has his own place in Carpenteria, appropriately named "Sly's". Some of the very best food that will ever pass your lips.
James specialty, was not actually writing or cars....he's a world class chef. He now has his own place in Carpenteria, appropriately named "Sly's". Some of the very best food that will ever pass your lips.
10-04-2013, 10:34 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Yup. One of my best friends of all time. We went to junior high school and high school together. If he wanted me to make him a trick cylinder head for his lawn mower, I'd gladly do it, for him.
James specialty, was not actually writing or cars....he's a world class chef. He now has his own place in Carpenteria, appropriately named "Sly's". Some of the very best food that will ever pass your lips.
James specialty, was not actually writing or cars....he's a world class chef. He now has his own place in Carpenteria, appropriately named "Sly's". Some of the very best food that will ever pass your lips.
That's it! I'm starting a stroker fund tomorrow! My mind is made up! No ****ing twin turbos, no supercharger... I want a Greg Brown Stroker!
10-04-2013, 10:40 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
There's obviously a back story here..
A quick google found this: Water-Cooled VW Performance Handbook: 3rd Edition
A quick google found this: Water-Cooled VW Performance Handbook: 3rd Edition
Last edited by Jherriott; 10-05-2013 at 03:12 PM.
10-04-2013, 10:53 PM
#22
Former Sponsor
So, in those days, I had worked very hard to make the lowly 924s run good. I used an Okrasa 2.3 liter stroker kit, with a trick German camshaft, a ported 924 Turbo cylinder head, and all the little pieces t make it all work together.
Made that Audi truck engine run pretty damn good.....and depressed a lot of 911SC/Carrera guys, in the process.
James came to me and asked me if I'd make a "prototype" head for the VW engine....for Ron Moser's company that James was consulting for, doing work on the original catalogue, and helping with product development.
Greg Raven and James Sly were good friends.
And that's the real "back story".
10-05-2013, 12:47 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Funny!
So, in those days, I had worked very hard to make the lowly 924s run good. I used an Okrasa 2.3 liter stroker kit, with a trick German camshaft, a ported 924 Turbo cylinder head, and all the little pieces t make it all work together.
Made that Audi truck engine run pretty damn good.....and depressed a lot of 911SC/Carrera guys, in the process.
James came to me and asked me if I'd make a "prototype" head for the VW engine....for Ron Moser's company that James was consulting for, doing work on the original catalogue, and helping with product development.
Greg Raven and James Sly were good friends.
And that's the real "back story".
So, in those days, I had worked very hard to make the lowly 924s run good. I used an Okrasa 2.3 liter stroker kit, with a trick German camshaft, a ported 924 Turbo cylinder head, and all the little pieces t make it all work together.
Made that Audi truck engine run pretty damn good.....and depressed a lot of 911SC/Carrera guys, in the process.
James came to me and asked me if I'd make a "prototype" head for the VW engine....for Ron Moser's company that James was consulting for, doing work on the original catalogue, and helping with product development.
Greg Raven and James Sly were good friends.
And that's the real "back story".
