'84 US head gasket failure...suggestions?
08-13-2013, 03:55 PM
#16
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The downside of pulling the engine: Mentally, it becomes a much larger job, with more parts scattered around, more things to keep track of. The job can become mentally overwhelming.
The downside to leaving the engine in the car: Cam carriers are time consuming to get off in the car.....everything else is the same as if it were sitting on an engine stand.
As a professional, I prefer to leave them in the vehicle, for just "normal" head work. You, however, have blown head gaskets...which means that you are going to have damage from acid coolant attacking the heads and possibly the block.
What does this mean? It may have to come out, anyway, so if it rolled into my shop, I'd probably pull the engine.
Make sure you use my cam carrier gaskets, instead of the stock ones....or no matter if you leave it in or take it out, or you will probably have to do it twice. Research this well known problem, carefully.
The downside to leaving the engine in the car: Cam carriers are time consuming to get off in the car.....everything else is the same as if it were sitting on an engine stand.
As a professional, I prefer to leave them in the vehicle, for just "normal" head work. You, however, have blown head gaskets...which means that you are going to have damage from acid coolant attacking the heads and possibly the block.
What does this mean? It may have to come out, anyway, so if it rolled into my shop, I'd probably pull the engine.
Make sure you use my cam carrier gaskets, instead of the stock ones....or no matter if you leave it in or take it out, or you will probably have to do it twice. Research this well known problem, carefully.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
08-13-2013, 04:07 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
and that lack of experience makes me feel like I'm nuts for even considering this. Oh well, I'll just go step by step, take my time and try to make a go of it. I've learned a lot these last two years, and I think I'll have learned a lot more (for better or for worse) by the time I'm done with this project.
If you take the time to research, study the WSM, stop when something doesn't make sense, do some more research, seek guidance, and not get discouraged, you will be fine. Disassembly should be fairly easy - if something isn't coming apart with moderate force, stop and regroup, apply penetrant, be sure you are using the right tool for the job. Broken bolts can set you back, especially if you don't have the means to repair. Bagging and labeling everything, and taking detailed pictures as you go will make reassembly much easier. Check and double check your work along the way, and ask for opinions when in doubt. Simple things like making sure hose clamps are oriented so that you can remove them at a later date if necessary when the engine is together and in the car is important.
08-13-2013, 09:19 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
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If planning to keep the car, you have the space, tool and a mechanic friend, i would pull the engine, expect 6 months parked with baby on the way and work on it when you can and not neglect the family, change everything that appear to be aged, once all done and put back in you will say it's worth it.
08-13-2013, 10:05 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Pull the motor. I've taken 3 different engines apart, and my 928 was the first one I've put together. 3 years ago, and it's still running great. There's a lot to keep track of.
Head to your local fishing/hunting store and pick up some bins. Head to officemax and grab some sharpie markers. Head to the hobby shop and buy a white paint marker. Last, grab a case of gallon size zip lock baggies.
Then you'll have all the tools you need to label, sort and organize the bits that come out. Remember: A car will take up 3x the space when apart than it does when it it is together.
I got mine together and it took me 7 months of time here and there, and didn't lose any bolts, or have any left over. Sure it was a long down time but part of it was
1) waiting for parts
2) oops, I need that too. Waiting for parts
3) oh, huh? I have a real job
4) I got a family too.
You won't fight the car nearly as much as you'd expect if the motor is on a stand.
I just remembered, you'll probably need some special order bolts to put it on the stand. I think they were M12x1.25 ?? Someone correct me here. I got a bunch from fastenal for $10 or something.
Mongo, I think we're seeing age related/poor coolant/storage failures more often.
Head to your local fishing/hunting store and pick up some bins. Head to officemax and grab some sharpie markers. Head to the hobby shop and buy a white paint marker. Last, grab a case of gallon size zip lock baggies.
Then you'll have all the tools you need to label, sort and organize the bits that come out. Remember: A car will take up 3x the space when apart than it does when it it is together.
I got mine together and it took me 7 months of time here and there, and didn't lose any bolts, or have any left over. Sure it was a long down time but part of it was
1) waiting for parts
2) oops, I need that too. Waiting for parts
3) oh, huh? I have a real job
4) I got a family too.
You won't fight the car nearly as much as you'd expect if the motor is on a stand.
I just remembered, you'll probably need some special order bolts to put it on the stand. I think they were M12x1.25 ?? Someone correct me here. I got a bunch from fastenal for $10 or something.
Mongo, I think we're seeing age related/poor coolant/storage failures more often.
08-13-2013, 10:50 PM
#20
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Not to scare anyone with a 16v car on here, but I keep seeing head gasket issues arising with 944 8v and 928 16v cars. Was there some issue with these gaskets installed at the time, or is it just age related issues? I know the lack of coolant changes can be a factor in the life of a head gasket.
It has gotten to the point where, when we take and engine apart, a "decent" head gasket is something that we hold up and show the other guys, in the shop. Multiple piece, falling apart, head gaskets are everyday things....everyone in the shop has seen multiples of those....and no one gets excited about them.
08-13-2013, 11:08 PM
#21
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I was in the same boat, and suffered from a lack of confidence in tackling what seemed like a daunting task. But when you really think about it, it is just a bunch of nuts and bolts, clips and fittings. I was fortunate to have the assistance of a local guru, and the use of his shop and tools - which was big.
If you take the time to research, study the WSM, stop when something doesn't make sense, do some more research, seek guidance, and not get discouraged, you will be fine. Disassembly should be fairly easy - if something isn't coming apart with moderate force, stop and regroup, apply penetrant, be sure you are using the right tool for the job. Broken bolts can set you back, especially if you don't have the means to repair. Bagging and labeling everything, and taking detailed pictures as you go will make reassembly much easier. Check and double check your work along the way, and ask for opinions when in doubt. Simple things like making sure hose clamps are oriented so that you can remove them at a later date if necessary when the engine is together and in the car is important.
If you take the time to research, study the WSM, stop when something doesn't make sense, do some more research, seek guidance, and not get discouraged, you will be fine. Disassembly should be fairly easy - if something isn't coming apart with moderate force, stop and regroup, apply penetrant, be sure you are using the right tool for the job. Broken bolts can set you back, especially if you don't have the means to repair. Bagging and labeling everything, and taking detailed pictures as you go will make reassembly much easier. Check and double check your work along the way, and ask for opinions when in doubt. Simple things like making sure hose clamps are oriented so that you can remove them at a later date if necessary when the engine is together and in the car is important.
Very few of the engines that get removed, at home, get re-assembled and are ever put back in and become functional again. There's a small group of people on Rennlist that are certainly the exception to this....however, most engines are sitting apart and will never run again. There's too many tricks and they are too complex, for the "but I can fix my lawnmower....sometimes" home mechanics.
I mentioned the "cam carrier gasket" problem. I bet there's a dozen people, on this site, that have had to go back and "redo" an engine that blew these gaskets and had to go back and redo these gaskets a second (or third) time.....maybe more.
And trust me, once the cam carriers are off....the cylinder heads virtually fall off.
Keep the project to the minimum. Study it carefully. Consider removing the heads, in the car, and see how bad the problem is and proceed from there.
08-14-2013, 10:32 AM
#22
Drifting
Here's a bunch of pictures of when I did head gaskets on mine. You can get an idea of what you're getting into. I pulled it, put new heads/cams on, and had it back in the car running 4 days later.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8713044...7618821493278/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8713044...7618821493278/
08-14-2013, 12:36 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
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Not to scare anyone with a 16v car on here, but I keep seeing head gasket issues arising with 944 8v and 928 16v cars. Was there some issue with these gaskets installed at the time, or is it just age related issues? I know the lack of coolant changes can be a factor in the life of a head gasket.
One point worth mentioning. The "professionals" on this site talk about it, with each other. The dismantlers talk about it.
Very few of the engines that get removed, at home, get re-assembled and are ever put back in and become functional again. There's a small group of people on Rennlist that are certainly the exception to this....however, most engines are sitting apart and will never run again. There's too many tricks and they are too complex, for the "but I can fix my lawnmower....sometimes" home mechanics.
I mentioned the "cam carrier gasket" problem. I bet there's a dozen people, on this site, that have had to go back and "redo" an engine that blew these gaskets and had to go back and redo these gaskets a second (or third) time.....maybe more.
And trust me, once the cam carriers are off....the cylinder heads virtually fall off.
Keep the project to the minimum. Study it carefully. Consider removing the heads, in the car, and see how bad the problem is and proceed from there.
Very few of the engines that get removed, at home, get re-assembled and are ever put back in and become functional again. There's a small group of people on Rennlist that are certainly the exception to this....however, most engines are sitting apart and will never run again. There's too many tricks and they are too complex, for the "but I can fix my lawnmower....sometimes" home mechanics.
I mentioned the "cam carrier gasket" problem. I bet there's a dozen people, on this site, that have had to go back and "redo" an engine that blew these gaskets and had to go back and redo these gaskets a second (or third) time.....maybe more.
And trust me, once the cam carriers are off....the cylinder heads virtually fall off.
Keep the project to the minimum. Study it carefully. Consider removing the heads, in the car, and see how bad the problem is and proceed from there.
Another benefit is he can clean the engine bay and replace hoses much easier when the engine is out.
08-14-2013, 01:19 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
One point worth mentioning. The "professionals" on this site talk about it, with each other. The dismantlers talk about it.
Very few of the engines that get removed, at home, get re-assembled and are ever put back in and become functional again. There's a small group of people on Rennlist that are certainly the exception to this....however, most engines are sitting apart and will never run again. There's too many tricks and they are too complex, for the "but I can fix my lawnmower....sometimes" home mechanics.
I mentioned the "cam carrier gasket" problem. I bet there's a dozen people, on this site, that have had to go back and "redo" an engine that blew these gaskets and had to go back and redo these gaskets a second (or third) time.....maybe more.
And trust me, once the cam carriers are off....the cylinder heads virtually fall off.
Keep the project to the minimum. Study it carefully. Consider removing the heads, in the car, and see how bad the problem is and proceed from there.
Very few of the engines that get removed, at home, get re-assembled and are ever put back in and become functional again. There's a small group of people on Rennlist that are certainly the exception to this....however, most engines are sitting apart and will never run again. There's too many tricks and they are too complex, for the "but I can fix my lawnmower....sometimes" home mechanics.
I mentioned the "cam carrier gasket" problem. I bet there's a dozen people, on this site, that have had to go back and "redo" an engine that blew these gaskets and had to go back and redo these gaskets a second (or third) time.....maybe more.
And trust me, once the cam carriers are off....the cylinder heads virtually fall off.
Keep the project to the minimum. Study it carefully. Consider removing the heads, in the car, and see how bad the problem is and proceed from there.
Greg, thank you for the ego boost. Then again having you, Greg Nettles and Sean to ask questions really helped. I found it an enjoyable experience building the engine back up.
08-14-2013, 02:13 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
I am proud to say that I used Greg's cam tower gaskets and uber fuel hoses on my car. And left to my own devices, my engine probably would still be in pieces. It is the support network here, and Dave Chamberland right up the road that helped me avoid that fate.
08-14-2013, 03:27 PM
#26
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As Greg points out below, lack of proper coolant/ coolant changes is the cause of the problems we are seeing. With this head design, you can actually have a significant amount of corrosion between the fire rings on the head and still be ok. sadly, most have gone 20 years without a coolant change. This can cause quite a few problems.
While I agree with you, Greg, that keeping it in the car works the best in your situation, when you might have only 5 minutes to remove one bolt then have to go back inside, this can be an issue. As well it is easier to see what is going on with gaskets and what not when it is out of the car. He has the basic skills, and he has a decent support network here. I am sure he can do it. As well if the block is corroded it needs to be pulled anyway.
Another benefit is he can clean the engine bay and replace hoses much easier when the engine is out.
While I agree with you, Greg, that keeping it in the car works the best in your situation, when you might have only 5 minutes to remove one bolt then have to go back inside, this can be an issue. As well it is easier to see what is going on with gaskets and what not when it is out of the car. He has the basic skills, and he has a decent support network here. I am sure he can do it. As well if the block is corroded it needs to be pulled anyway.
Another benefit is he can clean the engine bay and replace hoses much easier when the engine is out.
No question that it is better to remove it....and the support network, here on Rennlist, is amazing!
If he has some "local help" and the support network here, there is no question he can do it. Hell, from what I've seen, I think people would "travel" to help him
Alone (and your first ever engine project) can be very overwhelming.
A 928 engine is not as simple as an American V-8.....
I remember my first ever automatic transmission (350 Turbo Hydramatic....long before there was any interent). It was pretty overwhelming......and I had a pretty good set of hands and an even better memory, back then.
08-14-2013, 04:53 PM
#27
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks so much for all of the responses everyone...I genuinely appreciate everyone's input (and pictures!). Without this forum, I would've sold this vehicle within the first six months (and I almost did). After mulling it over a lot, I think I'm going to go ahead and pull the engine. I've been looking at the WSM's engine removal procedure and it looks relatively straightforward, and my mechanic friend seems eager to assist with the whole process. That will allow me easier access to all of the bolts and gaskets (both on the top and the bottom of the engine). That being said, I would be lying if I said that I wasn't intimidated by opening up the engine itself. I will certainly be asking a whole bunch of questions, so I hope that most of them don't sound too stupid, but I'd rather look dumb then @#$@ up my engine.
Greg, I will be calling you to place an order for those gaskets!
Greg, I will be calling you to place an order for those gaskets!
08-14-2013, 05:29 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
I'll give you good advice both the Greg's gave me (RIP one of them). BEG, BORROW, OR BUY A GOOD TORQUE WRENCH.
Don't forget to unbolt the wiring harness on the left side that runs over the crossmember or you'll end up trying to pick up the car with the wiring harness when you remove the engine. It's a little M6 bolt hidden under the steering rack. You'll see it and swear at it.
Marvel at how easy everything in the engine bay is to work on when you have the engine out.
Greg Nettles told me the way he got the top bellhousing bolts off was 4' of extensions and coming up from the bottom. Of course he had a lift. Rob Edwards found the perfect wrench for getting them off from the top. Here's a thread I did just on those bolts:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=75372
Don't forget to unbolt the wiring harness on the left side that runs over the crossmember or you'll end up trying to pick up the car with the wiring harness when you remove the engine. It's a little M6 bolt hidden under the steering rack. You'll see it and swear at it.
Marvel at how easy everything in the engine bay is to work on when you have the engine out.
Greg Nettles told me the way he got the top bellhousing bolts off was 4' of extensions and coming up from the bottom. Of course he had a lift. Rob Edwards found the perfect wrench for getting them off from the top. Here's a thread I did just on those bolts:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=75372
08-14-2013, 06:18 PM
#29
Racer
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Scenario: pull engine, prepare for baby, become father (good luck and enjoy!!), spend couple of years doing a couple 5 min jobs, maybe become father again, spend couple of years doing a couple of 1 min jobs, put engine back in. No need to fit kiddy seats anymore by that time.
Don't worry about the engine. It will be a nice distraction every now and then for quite a while, while you focus on the other event. Way more important, fun, life changing and no WSM...
Best wishes from Holland, and enjoy!
Don't worry about the engine. It will be a nice distraction every now and then for quite a while, while you focus on the other event. Way more important, fun, life changing and no WSM...
Best wishes from Holland, and enjoy!
Last edited by Dutch 928 fan; 08-14-2013 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Spelling
08-14-2013, 06:37 PM
#30
Pro
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Dutch 928 fan:10685266
Scenario: pull engine, prepare for baby, become father (good luck and enjoy!!), spend couple of years doing a couple 5 min jobs, maybe become father again, spend couple of years doing a couple of 1 min jobs, put engine back in. No need to fit kiddy seats anymore by that time.
Don't worry about the engine. It will be a nice distraction every now and then for quite a while, while you focus on the other event. Way more important, fun, life changing and no WSM...
Best wishes from Holland, and enjoy!
Don't worry about the engine. It will be a nice distraction every now and then for quite a while, while you focus on the other event. Way more important, fun, life changing and no WSM...
Best wishes from Holland, and enjoy!
