So you wanna track your 928...
03-18-2013, 10:46 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
So you wanna track your 928...
Just back from my second track weekend. Both have been both incredibly fun experiences, but also incredibly frustrating experiences due to my choice of vehicle. Here's my step by step guide to tracking a 928. I will continue to add to it as I continue to do track weekends, because I'm totally hooked.
Step 1: You must first admit that you're a little crazy. There can be no other first step. You likely have made that admission several times before because, well, you own a 928, a car that suits insane people quite nicely. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly but expecting a different result.
To be sure, they are amazing machines, and possibly the best all-around street Porsche ever made (until the latest 911, IMHO). But for all the joy they serve, they also dish out plenty of pain. This you know for a fact, because you've owned one long enough to have experienced lots of random, and of course crazy expensive or difficult to repair, stuff breaking. And you're talking about tracking what is essentially a vintage car. The youngest 928 you can track is nearly 20 years old now. Mine is 25 years old.
Step 2: Open your wallet. Track weekends are far more expensive than just the entry fee, which is typically north of $300 by itself. At a minimum, a pro shop has to tech your car, so unless you're a pro tech, that's at least an hour of labor to go through the checklist. You'll likely go through a couple of tanks of gas, plus whatever gas you use to get to the track. Don't forget food + hotel, either. Because the car has to be fully sorted, you'll also likely need tires, brakes & new brake fluid if it hasn't been done in the last 12 months, pads, and whatever else they find when the car gets teched. You'll also want to have handy a nice tool selection, oil, coolant, brake fluid, power steering fluid, brake cleaner, window cleaner, tire pressure gauge, compressed air or a compressor, fire extinguisher, and gloves. There's plenty of good checklists out there for what to bring with you, and if yuo forget something, chances are someone there has a spare. But, the car cannot be leaking any fluids at all to get through tech, and at this last event, the car was teched every day; good luck with that on a 928! I'd also strongly recommend trailering the car, if only for piece of mind to guarantee that you can get yourself home. I barely got home this weekend. So, you might need a tow vehicle, and a trailer, and somewhere to put said vehicles. You'll also need a helmet, and it must be Snell 2005 or newer (2010 is out, so spring for that). Eventually consider slicks, track wheels, racing seats, a roll cage, and seatbelt harnesses. Eventually consider turning your 928 into a track car. I am. Consider, also, picking up a GoPro video camera system. Videos from this past weekend should be up this week; it takes a while to load them. My videos from the Glen are on You Tube:
Step 3: Steel yourself for the unexpected. My car was fully sorted, or so I thought, well in advance of this track day! Went in for tech, came out $3500+ lighter when the shop started digging into the car. A small oil leak they found turned out to be a huge mess that lead to an intake refresh and a TB/WP job (at least I got to add the Porkensioner). Wish I had the time to do it myself, but I was 10 days out from a track event, so there you go; this is how the 928 responds to impending tracking. Similar result the first time I went to the track last fall. $2500 later...
At the track this weekend, the car developed a power steering leak, despite the entire system being new. Plus the car ran hot in my first track day and I told the shop about it to check it during tech. They reported finding no issues, which makes sense under normal street or highway conditions; it even runs on the cold side normally. On the track this weekend, as it did in the fall in 40 degree weather in upstate NY, it ran into the red, causing coolant to leak out of the expansion tank and getting me moments away from a black flag at the end of my 5th session. Coolant on the track is a very bad thing as it just sits on top of the track surface. I self-black flagged after that and limped the car home; as expected it ran in the cool range on the highway. My guess is that the radiator has lost some efficiency and cannot handle the sustained high rev runs. Pretty sure it's the original radiator.
Step 4: Be prepared to be addicted. If you like driving fast, which you probably do because you drive a 928, you'll instantly fall in love with track driving.
You can push the hell out of the car in about the safest possible environment. Yes there is danger involved, but step 1 should help you get over that. The 928, when running properly, is amazing on a track, especially VIR and Watkins Glen. VIR is about perfect for the 928, and I now prefer it over the Glen. You'll also love pretty much the entire experience because everyone there is so much fun to be around and typically as passionate as you are about what they are doing. It's both a raucous and family atmosphere. Even the classroom sessions are fun and amazingly informative. They've been at this for a while and they have it down to a science.
Step 5: Be prepared to be both amazed and humbled by the 928. You're racing a vintage car, but one that can hang with the best of the best out there. This weekend, I could easily hang with almost every car in my run group, which included everything from a Miata to a Panamera GTS. I absolutely smoked an E63, easily handled M3s, and while I got passed by a new 911, he couldn't get away from me, either, for 4 laps! That was an awesome 4 laps that I will never forget. The car also received an amazing amount of love this weekend, mcuh more so than at the Glen. People were definitely impressed by the performance, and very curious about the car. Several folks walked up to me and told me how they've always wanted a 928; these are people driving 911 turbos, Carrera 4S's, Cayman Rs, etc. But you will also be humbled by the car when it breaks, and it will, because you're racing a vintage car.
It feels to me that no matter how much prep you do, something will break on the 928 during the weekend. As my instructor put it, if it happened at the track, it was going to happen in 6 months on the road. I'm not sure if that's accurate, but it helps with dealing with step #2, and fits nicely into #1.
Step 6: See step 4. and start planning your schedule, and vacations, around track weekends. I am already looking for my next one.
Step 1: You must first admit that you're a little crazy. There can be no other first step. You likely have made that admission several times before because, well, you own a 928, a car that suits insane people quite nicely. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly but expecting a different result.
To be sure, they are amazing machines, and possibly the best all-around street Porsche ever made (until the latest 911, IMHO). But for all the joy they serve, they also dish out plenty of pain. This you know for a fact, because you've owned one long enough to have experienced lots of random, and of course crazy expensive or difficult to repair, stuff breaking. And you're talking about tracking what is essentially a vintage car. The youngest 928 you can track is nearly 20 years old now. Mine is 25 years old.Step 2: Open your wallet. Track weekends are far more expensive than just the entry fee, which is typically north of $300 by itself. At a minimum, a pro shop has to tech your car, so unless you're a pro tech, that's at least an hour of labor to go through the checklist. You'll likely go through a couple of tanks of gas, plus whatever gas you use to get to the track. Don't forget food + hotel, either. Because the car has to be fully sorted, you'll also likely need tires, brakes & new brake fluid if it hasn't been done in the last 12 months, pads, and whatever else they find when the car gets teched. You'll also want to have handy a nice tool selection, oil, coolant, brake fluid, power steering fluid, brake cleaner, window cleaner, tire pressure gauge, compressed air or a compressor, fire extinguisher, and gloves. There's plenty of good checklists out there for what to bring with you, and if yuo forget something, chances are someone there has a spare. But, the car cannot be leaking any fluids at all to get through tech, and at this last event, the car was teched every day; good luck with that on a 928! I'd also strongly recommend trailering the car, if only for piece of mind to guarantee that you can get yourself home. I barely got home this weekend. So, you might need a tow vehicle, and a trailer, and somewhere to put said vehicles. You'll also need a helmet, and it must be Snell 2005 or newer (2010 is out, so spring for that). Eventually consider slicks, track wheels, racing seats, a roll cage, and seatbelt harnesses. Eventually consider turning your 928 into a track car. I am. Consider, also, picking up a GoPro video camera system. Videos from this past weekend should be up this week; it takes a while to load them. My videos from the Glen are on You Tube:
Step 3: Steel yourself for the unexpected. My car was fully sorted, or so I thought, well in advance of this track day! Went in for tech, came out $3500+ lighter when the shop started digging into the car. A small oil leak they found turned out to be a huge mess that lead to an intake refresh and a TB/WP job (at least I got to add the Porkensioner). Wish I had the time to do it myself, but I was 10 days out from a track event, so there you go; this is how the 928 responds to impending tracking. Similar result the first time I went to the track last fall. $2500 later...
At the track this weekend, the car developed a power steering leak, despite the entire system being new. Plus the car ran hot in my first track day and I told the shop about it to check it during tech. They reported finding no issues, which makes sense under normal street or highway conditions; it even runs on the cold side normally. On the track this weekend, as it did in the fall in 40 degree weather in upstate NY, it ran into the red, causing coolant to leak out of the expansion tank and getting me moments away from a black flag at the end of my 5th session. Coolant on the track is a very bad thing as it just sits on top of the track surface. I self-black flagged after that and limped the car home; as expected it ran in the cool range on the highway. My guess is that the radiator has lost some efficiency and cannot handle the sustained high rev runs. Pretty sure it's the original radiator.Step 4: Be prepared to be addicted. If you like driving fast, which you probably do because you drive a 928, you'll instantly fall in love with track driving.
You can push the hell out of the car in about the safest possible environment. Yes there is danger involved, but step 1 should help you get over that. The 928, when running properly, is amazing on a track, especially VIR and Watkins Glen. VIR is about perfect for the 928, and I now prefer it over the Glen. You'll also love pretty much the entire experience because everyone there is so much fun to be around and typically as passionate as you are about what they are doing. It's both a raucous and family atmosphere. Even the classroom sessions are fun and amazingly informative. They've been at this for a while and they have it down to a science.Step 5: Be prepared to be both amazed and humbled by the 928. You're racing a vintage car, but one that can hang with the best of the best out there. This weekend, I could easily hang with almost every car in my run group, which included everything from a Miata to a Panamera GTS. I absolutely smoked an E63, easily handled M3s, and while I got passed by a new 911, he couldn't get away from me, either, for 4 laps! That was an awesome 4 laps that I will never forget. The car also received an amazing amount of love this weekend, mcuh more so than at the Glen. People were definitely impressed by the performance, and very curious about the car. Several folks walked up to me and told me how they've always wanted a 928; these are people driving 911 turbos, Carrera 4S's, Cayman Rs, etc. But you will also be humbled by the car when it breaks, and it will, because you're racing a vintage car.
It feels to me that no matter how much prep you do, something will break on the 928 during the weekend. As my instructor put it, if it happened at the track, it was going to happen in 6 months on the road. I'm not sure if that's accurate, but it helps with dealing with step #2, and fits nicely into #1.Step 6: See step 4. and start planning your schedule, and vacations, around track weekends. I am already looking for my next one.
Last edited by Courtshark; 03-19-2013 at 11:29 AM.
03-18-2013, 10:56 AM
#2
Great write up, it was a joy to read.
Good luck out there and keep the shiny side up.
Good luck out there and keep the shiny side up.
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scoper (10-17-2021)
03-18-2013, 11:05 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thank you, Sean and Steve. The addiction has taken hold for me for sure. Helps that I was allowed to solo in both of my first two track weekends, and considered for run-group promotion on this weekend, too; likely would have been promoted had the car allowed me to get back on track Sunday.
03-18-2013, 11:43 AM
#5
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My one experience with modern tracking my 928 led to a disaster for the car. I think the cooling system in the 928 isn't up to the task even in the best of shape. The only piece of advice I have is to investigate the oiling system carefully, and insure you don't ingest too much air. This is a complex problem, and I don't know if there's a well defined solution to it.
It was fun while it lasted, and yes - the 928 is most capable compared to modern cars.
It was fun while it lasted, and yes - the 928 is most capable compared to modern cars.
03-18-2013, 11:50 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think the AC condensor being right smack in front of the radiator with less than an inch gap is a place to start, thus my interest in making it a dedicated track car. I can only assume those with dedicated track 928s have deleted their AC for this reason.
What, more specifically, was your "disaster," if you don't mind sharing?
I'm at a crossroads with the car, and ready to take the dive into dedicated-track-car-land. It's either that or get another car for tracking, and go get this one painted up all purty. It needs body help (awful respray under prior ownership) and I won't invest in that if it's a track car. But I won't make it a track car if it's, well, stupid to make a 928 a track car. After two events, the frustration level with the lack of reliability/cooling problems has not yet outpaced the joy level, but it's close. I think deleting the AC is an obvious first move for tracking purposes.
What, more specifically, was your "disaster," if you don't mind sharing?
I'm at a crossroads with the car, and ready to take the dive into dedicated-track-car-land. It's either that or get another car for tracking, and go get this one painted up all purty. It needs body help (awful respray under prior ownership) and I won't invest in that if it's a track car. But I won't make it a track car if it's, well, stupid to make a 928 a track car. After two events, the frustration level with the lack of reliability/cooling problems has not yet outpaced the joy level, but it's close. I think deleting the AC is an obvious first move for tracking purposes.
03-18-2013, 12:22 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
You probably have an engine problem and not a cooling problem. Is it using any coolant?
The cheapest track car is some else's old track car. Making one is the hard and expensive way by far. Get a 928 or 952 that's already been converted and you'll be way ahead.
You do point out the struggle of making an old 928 a track car. First off, it's old and all the engine seals and gaskets are probably leaking. The brake system will need to be, essentially, remanufactured.
You haven't begun to hit the oil control issues yet.
I've lost track of all the work I've done to track my car. All the breakdowns and struggles. It's hellaciously fun when it's going well. It may seem insane but I'm not doing things over again, exactly, but doing them better this time.
The cheapest track car is some else's old track car. Making one is the hard and expensive way by far. Get a 928 or 952 that's already been converted and you'll be way ahead.
You do point out the struggle of making an old 928 a track car. First off, it's old and all the engine seals and gaskets are probably leaking. The brake system will need to be, essentially, remanufactured.
You haven't begun to hit the oil control issues yet.
I've lost track of all the work I've done to track my car. All the breakdowns and struggles. It's hellaciously fun when it's going well. It may seem insane but I'm not doing things over again, exactly, but doing them better this time.
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03-18-2013, 12:29 PM
#8
Heading to my 4th DE in 14 mos. in April, and yes they get more addicting with each trip. While mine has performed flawlessly in the previous 3 two day events, its a motivating factor in the forefront of my mind as I'm pushing my shark around the track. I tell people that once I get past the obvious of not causing bodily injury to myself or others, or property damage to others, I do not want to be bringing my shark home on a flat bed truck! That might give cause for the other half to justify questioning my new found hobby!
It helps to be continuing to update some of the 28 yr old items on my shark, that while working fine, were limiting my confidence in the car & myself. I actually apologized to my car the last day of my Feb DE cause I knew my shark could do much more than I was allowing it to. I told it I'd be sure to let its tires sing loud to me on every corner, & that they did! I've got to continue to get it lighter and faster too, not unlike what I need to do to myself as well!!
It looks like a Panzer tank in comparison to the 944, 911, and WRX in this pic.
It helps to be continuing to update some of the 28 yr old items on my shark, that while working fine, were limiting my confidence in the car & myself. I actually apologized to my car the last day of my Feb DE cause I knew my shark could do much more than I was allowing it to. I told it I'd be sure to let its tires sing loud to me on every corner, & that they did! I've got to continue to get it lighter and faster too, not unlike what I need to do to myself as well!!
It looks like a Panzer tank in comparison to the 944, 911, and WRX in this pic.
03-18-2013, 12:35 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
You probably have an engine problem and not a cooling problem. Is it using any coolant?
The cheapest track car is some else's old track car. Making one is the hard and expensive way by far. Get a 928 or 952 that's already been converted and you'll be way ahead.
You do point out the struggle of making an old 928 a track car. First off, it's old and all the engine seals and gaskets are probably leaking. The brake system will need to be, essentially, remanufactured.
You haven't begun to hit the oil control issues yet.
I've lost track of all the work I've done to track my car. All the breakdowns and struggles. It's hellaciously fun when it's going well. It may seem insane but I'm not doing things over again, exactly, but doing them better this time.
The cheapest track car is some else's old track car. Making one is the hard and expensive way by far. Get a 928 or 952 that's already been converted and you'll be way ahead.
You do point out the struggle of making an old 928 a track car. First off, it's old and all the engine seals and gaskets are probably leaking. The brake system will need to be, essentially, remanufactured.
You haven't begun to hit the oil control issues yet.
I've lost track of all the work I've done to track my car. All the breakdowns and struggles. It's hellaciously fun when it's going well. It may seem insane but I'm not doing things over again, exactly, but doing them better this time.
And as far as oil issues, so far so good. It didn't consume a drop this weekend as far as I could tell.
I'd love to find a prebuilt track car, but all the same, I'm half way there with this one. The braking system has indeed been rebuilt, and upgraded to GTS components. Next up is stripping out weight and AC, and roll bar, etc.
03-18-2013, 01:28 PM
#10
Drifting
OK, you are on the slippery slope and I'm glad to be a part of it. You can drive to the car or over the car you have. On track I know I'm not the fastest and I have to drive it home. I got away after the first couple years knowing that ~130 is my max on the back straight, no reason to redline the "old" car just for the satisfaction of saying how fast I went. I do have to drive it home. I've been tracking the same '87 28 since 2004, never had any issues with cooling or brakes or leaks. I keep the car up myself and haven't felt the need to change the cooling or update the brakes. I turn 2:20's and try to get that consistently, speed is in the corners so I'm trying to perfect it with the car I have.
Track days can be cheap, or expensive your choice. Bring the food in a cooler, sleep in a tent at the track (if they allow it) and work on the car yourself. You'll end up paying for tires/gas/brakes/helmet the rest is up to you. I always get thumbs up on my car but since I've been running registration since then people are used to seeing at least 2 928's at our events. Its not as alien in this region.
I don't get much chance to pass cars in the solo group, sometimes I run in white just to get the feel to pass again.
Buying someone else's track car is the best way to get a track car. The 928 is awesome on track, but the price of those Cayman's that are already track prepped is pretty temping. And most of them are very capable for a low buy in price.
Track days can be cheap, or expensive your choice. Bring the food in a cooler, sleep in a tent at the track (if they allow it) and work on the car yourself. You'll end up paying for tires/gas/brakes/helmet the rest is up to you. I always get thumbs up on my car but since I've been running registration since then people are used to seeing at least 2 928's at our events. Its not as alien in this region.
I don't get much chance to pass cars in the solo group, sometimes I run in white just to get the feel to pass again.
Buying someone else's track car is the best way to get a track car. The 928 is awesome on track, but the price of those Cayman's that are already track prepped is pretty temping. And most of them are very capable for a low buy in price.
03-18-2013, 01:44 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
It shouldn't boil no matter how hard you're driving it. You've got the A/C off and it's cool out, no? Could be a lot of things. A bad head gasket comes to mind but that'd show as lost coolant. Bad thermostat. Too early ignition timing. Pump impeller slipping.
Sounds good, but 2/6 bearing death is inevitable if you drive it hard and don't make changes to the engine.
Or you're just beginning. Strip it out, put in a cage, race seat(s), fire extinguisher. Maybe a fuel cell. It's a lot of time and money. Then you'll want upgraded suspension and more power.
Or you're just beginning. Strip it out, put in a cage, race seat(s), fire extinguisher. Maybe a fuel cell. It's a lot of time and money. Then you'll want upgraded suspension and more power.
03-18-2013, 01:53 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Since 2007 I've done about 25 DE events. When I got my car I knew I would be doing this. I was in a TR7 and knew cooling was key. I had a CR radiator with an external oil cooler done first. This included TB/WP as well as a compression test and overall review of systems. Next came my first event and the engine performed flawleesly, even with 86K mile on it. Unfortunately the old shocks and springs weren't up to the task and in a long right hander I had enough lean to lift a tire and have it skip, snapping an axle. After adding more money I had a decent solid platform. I was still in the middle group, middle pack as far as speed. That was year one. $4000.00 for car and another $5000.00 on stuff. I already had a good helmet (SA 2005 then).
Every year I put about $3000.00 per year for DE stuff alone, I've added safety stuff and do most of my own wrenching. Craigslist, Ebay or Big 3 for parts. I'm still getting my *** handed to me by the Z06, viper and newer cars.
It's a love for the car that keeps me in this beast. I know my limits and have occasionally driven past them. I'm the only 928 out there but people still come up and take pictures of it and skip the GT-R, Viper, new 911's and other cars.
It's like crack, I had a taste and I just can't stop. And I don't want to.
Every year I put about $3000.00 per year for DE stuff alone, I've added safety stuff and do most of my own wrenching. Craigslist, Ebay or Big 3 for parts. I'm still getting my *** handed to me by the Z06, viper and newer cars.
It's a love for the car that keeps me in this beast. I know my limits and have occasionally driven past them. I'm the only 928 out there but people still come up and take pictures of it and skip the GT-R, Viper, new 911's and other cars.
It's like crack, I had a taste and I just can't stop. And I don't want to.
03-18-2013, 02:32 PM
#14
btw, the 944 driver in that pic I posted is a long time 928 owner. Although he still takes his 928 to the track, he recently purchased that already race prepped 944 to further his track experience.
03-18-2013, 02:39 PM
#15
Shameful Thread Killer
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I think the AC condensor being right smack in front of the radiator with less than an inch gap is a place to start, thus my interest in making it a dedicated track car. I can only assume those with dedicated track 928s have deleted their AC for this reason.
What, more specifically, was your "disaster," if you don't mind sharing?
I think deleting the AC is an obvious first move for tracking purposes.
What, more specifically, was your "disaster," if you don't mind sharing?
I think deleting the AC is an obvious first move for tracking purposes.
My disaster was a 2/6 rod bearing seizure. I checked the oil level before going out, it was right in the middle of the stick. The car had the correct weight of oil, and the vent system was operating nominally. Of course, the engine had 134k miles on it, but the failure mode wasn't consistent with age. Oil pressure was good right up until it froze. Coolant temps were a bit high, but not out of the limit.
To start, make sure the cooling system is running nominally. The 928 cooling circuit is a bit different than other cars, in the way the bypass works, so it's important that it's all up to good condition.