jbrob007

I looked at the Pure Gas link for Ohio... 2/3 of the stations listed are marinas and most are listed by Lat & Long... which means I'll have to use one of them-thar damn new gadgets the kids are always talkin' on with thier thumbs... ya know, a damn smart-phone-thingy... I just cant win!!

Fabio421

The problems you are seeing isn't caused directly by ethanol but is instead caused by water in the fuel. Ethanol will allow water to mix with it more readily than pure gasoline. There are stabilizers made to be used with ethanol fuels. I have done extensive testing ( two years worth) with various rubber and plastic fuel system parts from the 928 and there is ZERO deterioration of these components. Mild steel parts can rust if you get water in your fuel and the car sits for long periods of time. Aluminum can also oxidize due to the water. Its the water that's the problem, of the ethanol. That's why boaters have such a hard time using fuel with any ethanol content. They are in a very wet environment

depami

Some water in a fuel systems is unavoidable.

Water in non-ethanol fuel separates and “falls” to the bottom of the tank.

Water in ethanol fuel is absorbed and carried through the system.

The water is what is causing the problem throughout the system not the ethanol.

If it weren't for the ethanol, water wouldn't be in the system, just the tank.


In my opinion ETHANOL FUEL IS A PROBLEM.


P.S. How is it that water turns the fuel line on a trimmer or chain saw to mush? After all, it must be the water causing the problem if it isn't the ethonal.

17prospective buyer

Maybe the pH of the water itself is what's eating the rubber?

Water in diesel is even worse... algae starts growing in diesel and clogs up all your filters.

Fabio421

Water seperates from ethanol enriched fuel just as it does in gasoline. After awhile it will undergo what is called, "phase seperation". The only difference is that Ethanol absorbs water from humidity in the air more readily than gasoline. The term for it is "hygroscopic". It absorbs water MUCH more readily than straight gasoline.

Regarding your fuel hose in your trimmer. Trimmer manufacturers have been using the absolute cheapest little clear plastic hoses for their engines. The plastic hoses get discolored and brittle due to gasoline and ethanol. They are not high quality hose. The manufacturers could put a modern fuel rated hose on their engines but choose not to in order to save $0.10 per trimmer. They don't see it as an added cost of $0.10 . They see it is a profit of $0.10 x hundreds of thousands of engines. Even the regular old "fuel injection" rated rubber fuel hose that you can buy at Napa or Advance Auto is able to withstand 85% ethanol with no ill effects. I've had a piece soaking in 85% ethanol for over two years. If I handed it to you along with a new piece of the same type of hose you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. This hose is only halfway suspended in the ethanol. The other half is in the air and has never touched the ethanol. Once while filming an update about my tests I dropped the hose on the floor. When I picked it up I couldn't tell which half of it had been in the ethanol and which ahdn't. They both looked and felt the same. No amount of bending or scrathing of the hose told me which side was which. It was only after I put it up to my nose and took a whiff did I quickly realize which side had been in the ethanol. This was after 1 year in the ethanol bath.

This biggest reason people have issues with small engines and ethanol treated gas is that they let the small engine sit for long periods of time without running. This used to be a HUGE no-no with any small engine. I was raised to shut off the fuel supply to the carburator while the engine was running and allow the fuel in the carb to burn off before putting my mowers away. This was done EVERY TIME the mower was finished being used. If the mower was going to be stored for awhile, such as in the winter. You were to drain the fuel tank and carb bowl. About 10 or 15 years ago, a product came along that changed that. It was Sta-bil. Now, everyone is used to not having to drain the fuel for the winter months as long as you have stabil in the tank. Well, with ethanol blended fuels you can't do that. A mower, trimmer, chain saw tank isn't a sealed fuel tank. They all have vented caps ( another cost savings measure by the manufacturers ). These vented caps allow air ( & humidity ) into the tanks. The water in the air will be absorbed by the ethanol and cause problems over time.

The moral of the story is this. Ethanol blended fuels aren't going anywhere. You can choose to bitch about it and believe internet rumors, or you can choose to educate yourself about it and learn how to avoid the potential problems. It's entirely up to you. I am only taking the time to write out such a long response because I get tired of seeing the same myths perpetuated about ethanol blended fuels. They aren't the devil spawn that they are made out to be and in the right application they are great performance fuels.

Remember all of the boo-hooing that mechanics and gear heads were doing back in the day when the government mandated unleaded fuels. The sky was falling. It was the end of the high performance engine. Our engines couldn't use it, etc, etc. It all seems so quaint now when you look back but it's the same thing we are seeing with the ethanol blended fuels.

WallyP

E10 gasoline mixed with two-stroke oil goes bad in a much shorter time than pure gas mixed with oil. Stabil helps a little, but it is still a problem. Small engine fuel system components fail very quickly when E10 is used. The carb corrodes very badly. The primer bulbs fail quickly. The fuel lines fail quickly. All of this is well documented, and supported by personal experience.

Large boats have another major problem. Built-in fiberglass fuel tanks fail quickly (in a very few years) when E10 is used. The only cure in most cases is to cut the deck off of the boat and replace the tank with custom stainless tanks. This costs more than the boat is worth. Hundreds of dearly-loved old cruisers have been scrapped because the fuel tanks turned to gel.

Auto manufacturers have adapted (mostly) to E10. Some manufacturers have already announced that the warranty will not cover any fuel system or engine damage caused by E15. Flex-fuel vehicles are good to go.

There are very few "farmers" left. The ethanol is being pushed by outfits like Archer-Daniels-Midlands - they have bought a lot of politicians...

I will not be putting E15 into anything that I own.

EMan 928

Quick question for you. Would our cars be better with 91 octane non-ethanol fuel or 93 octane ethanol fuel? Don't have a local 93 octane non-ethanol source, 91 is the highest I've found.

robot808

Where the hell is Brendan? He should have been here by now.

depami

Thank you, Fabio and Wally for your detailed explanations, however conflicting they may be.

I will continue to run E10, when unavoidable, in my automobiles, just because that’s the way it is.

I will continue to run E0 in my small engines and boats, just because that’s the way I am.

I will continue to avoid E15 as long as possible, just because of my stubborn ignorance.

Peace,

DPM

xschop

Not only the Hygroscopic nature of ethyl alk that takes on water, but etOH when introduced to all the long-chain hydrocarbons instantly starts producing organic acids (low PH). The fact is no-one knows just how long the E-10 has set mixed from it's addition from cracking to the gas-pump. The longer it sets, the lower the pH, the more acid attack on the various components. The higher the etOh conc., the faster the Acid production. I won't put it in my bike or mower because it eats the Al carbs. I always wonder what it does to Nikasil.

BC

^This

BC

This Also.

E10 has been running through every car on the road in most states since, what, the 90s? Now all of a sudden E15 is evil? Corrsive?

People know the difference between methanol and ethanol right? One being corrosive and the other NOT?

Jesus. And these people vote?

jeff spahn

If they did that Congress would have to shut down because of all their hot air.

BC

*Sits down, Cracks nuckles*

I'm here. Busy work day, but I'll try and keep up.

BC

Ethanol is hydroscopic. Like Brake Fluid. It holds and can absorb water. Therefore if there is something in the fuel system that is going to be destroyed or allowed to rust when water sits in it, then there can be problems.

The oil (oil turns into petrol right? Can we agree on that?) is a lubricant and protectant for those same parts. So most of the time everything will be okay.

Ethanol acts as a cleaning agent for resins and similar varnishes that build up in fuel systems. This has been mentioned by the well reasoned posts of Fabio above. If someone does not understand this, but still wishes to label ethanol as "corrosive" - then they are being willfully ignorant.


Ethanol in large amounts MAY soften NATURAL rubbers. I do not know of a car made with natural rubber fuel lines after 1985 or so. If someone wishes to blame ethanol for a fuel line deteriorating AFTER ITS ALREADY 20 YEARS old, then there is little someone will be able to say to argue with stupidity.

It has less BTU units per gallon than regular petrol. That is a different discussion, but suffice to say, higher octane can be utilized to create higher efficiency, and that can in many ways partially offset the MPG. It takes designing the entire system around the fuel. Just like electricity or Hydrogen.