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Rotrex Supercharger thread

 
Old 09-24-2012, 11:51 PM
  #61  
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I got data.

It matches what Victor has made available in as much as im seeing a LOT of energy coming out of the IC compared to the air temp going into it from the air pump using spare TIT sensors and a display I borrowed from the shop.


Beats sitting there and ignoring available data.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:54 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Speedtoys View Post
I got data.

It matches what Victor has made available in as much as im seeing a LOT of energy coming out of the IC compared to the air temp going into it from the air pump using spare TIT sensors and a display I borrowed from the shop.


Beats sitting there and ignoring available data.
Y E A H.

That's why you posted the data?
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:58 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Speedtoys View Post
I got data.

It matches what Victor has made available in as much as im seeing a LOT of energy coming out of the IC compared to the air temp going into it from the air pump using spare TIT sensors and a display I borrowed from the shop.


Beats sitting there and ignoring available data.
You'd have a lot more credibility here, if you'd just say:

"I bought one, I want to feel good about buying it, there is a positive power output gain, and I like it."

Everyone would understand that.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:03 AM
  #64  
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Oh thanks, nice comment Fabio. It's pretty easy for you to sit behind your computer and sling uneducated & stupid comments about other peoples work, isn't it. And about something you have never had any contact with what so ever. So tell me, what have you created for a 928 lately? It seems to me someone that just keeps thowing there money away on a stripper might welcome some cost saving and intuitive thinking now and then. How about you put your energy into something useful or creative.

Greg.... dude, I will personally send you all the data you would like. I have tons of logs and data you can tear apart all you want. Just give a couple days to get the dyno pulls done hey and then bash me all you want if I am wrong, OK
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:31 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
You'd have a lot more credibility here, if you'd just say:

"I bought one, I want to feel good about buying it, there is a positive power output gain, and I like it."

Everyone would understand that.
I did.

Then you pissed in my Cheerios, and brought down Mark Anderson at the same time.


My whole take is that Ive gotten what I believe I needed out of it, im not supporting 450, 491, or 550Hp anywhere anyone wants to measure it. Ive said before..I dont have a horse in that race.

It fits my mission of a fun bolt on, at an acceptable price, that with a Sharktuner is easyish to detail out and manage.

I believe quite a bit could be gotten from the kit, with -simple- changes in pulley size and whether or not you have the IC option (I do) and whether your mission (use or HP goal) then can get by on easy air/air cooling, or AO and others use of water/air at additional cost. The only "stage" to the kit levels..is if you buy the IC or not. Want more go..cool it better, get smaller pulleys..and fuel the **** outta it. Eventually you'll pass the reasonable efficiency of the provided MAF & supercharger (in that order) and you decide on your own where to go with it.

Other than that..I think Victor is being really helpful to the owners of the kit, and we will see even more useful data this week.

I have access to low-cost dynojet time this coming weekend to wonder where Im at as well at Sears Point...so who knows. Either way as I stated, im happy with what I got after initial install hiccups were dealt with. (hose/clamp/O2 sensor related)

I never took HP sides in this..just I (and others) dont need belittled to a dreamer to support that it's good kit. A healthy disagreement is HEALTHY.

Places like this..actually need it. Healthy. The absolute rarity of the 928 has, IMHO, prevented a total ton of absolute crap being marketed to it as power adders/etc. At least we're that fortunate.

Its a LONG way from other things, from other places, that dont get thought out before shipping to someone and claiming outright fiction from simple (mis)design considerations.

But I spose also that Fabio can toss out any opinion he likes from the sidelines..he doesnt have one to make the same "Oh hell, that does work..." observation that I came to after being initially skeptical.



There is data available, he can choose to ignore it if he likes...but..again, it (air pump IC concept) does fit the mission of the occasional street commando, which is all it was offered to service.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:33 AM
  #66  
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I usually take the high road..but..

Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
That's all I want.

I don't want, need, or think I deserve a bunch of grief.

I think I help more people, on this Forum, than anyone else that "has a business" that has anything to do with a 928.

Anyone!

If you guys don't want my input, just say so...and I'll be gone.

!
Yeah, I am an abrupt a$$hole. I've known that my entire life. My friends know it. My wife knows it. My dog knows it. Even my mother knows it
Thats something i would be proud of as an individual.



Take a hike...abrupt ..arrogant a$$hole.


I think I help more people, on this Forum, than anyone else that "has a business" that has anything to do with a 928.

Anyone!
With the company you share on this forum and with the history of help handed down from groups..business and individuals over the history of the RL here and the email list that predates this place, thats a large statement.
Who's in dreamland??

reminds me of a scene from a good ol' Dirty Harry movie...

Captain Briggs: Don't you lecture me, you son of a bitch! Do you know who I am? Do you know my record?
Harry Callahan: Yeah... you're a legend in your own mind.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:06 AM
  #67  
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self-edit, staying out of the sandbox.

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Old 09-25-2012, 10:51 AM
  #68  
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I will try to keep some good content in here. In my extensive testing (and I have lots of ST2 data to back it up), I have seen the stock MAF reach its limit at around 390rwhp on a GT. This would be more like 380rwhp on an automatic.

Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:32 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by victor25 View Post
Oh thanks, nice comment Fabio. It's pretty easy for you to sit behind your computer and sling uneducated & stupid comments about other peoples work, isn't it. And about something you have never had any contact with what so ever. So tell me, what have you created for a 928 lately? It seems to me someone that just keeps thowing there money away on a stripper might welcome some cost saving and intuitive thinking now and then. How about you put your energy into something useful or creative.
Boy, you sure do have thin skin. Show me where I've "slung uneducated and stupid comments" about your work. I pointed out that you were the one who claims that the smog pump is adequate to use for the intercooler and I asked you to post the data. I'm sorry but " it works because I say so" isn't good enough for me. And it's not good enough for alot of people. I want facts. What is your charge temperature before the intercooler? What is the charge temperature after the intercooler? What was the ambient temperature when you took this reading? What was your boost pressure? All of these things are important facts that will help to prove or disprove your intercooler theory. Im not saying that this strange setup you have will take zero degrees out of the charge temp. I'm just saying that it is inadequate for it's intended purpose. Take a step back and realize that you are selling a product ( without being a vendor I might add ) that makes some VERY outrageous claims. Claims about this intercooler, claims that you made 481 rwhp from 6ish psi & non-intercooled, etc. How could you not expect people who have any clue about boost to not question you?

Originally Posted by Speedtoys View Post
I got data.

It matches what Victor has made available in as much as im seeing a LOT of energy coming out of the IC compared to the air temp going into it from the air pump using spare TIT sensors and a display I borrowed from the shop.

Beats sitting there and ignoring available data.
Please post the data. Thats all I ask. Why is it Top Secret if it works so well?
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:11 PM
  #70  
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Yes Fabio my skin is worn a little thin at this point. And I completely understand why guys like murf, or others like him, are not on here very much. It's just too much distraction and name calling. Too much DRAMA that is just not needed. I am trying to stay on the high road, but a few people are making it tough, while other are smart enough to do self edits LOL liked that one

If you go back and look through the thread you pointed out-- https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-how-well.html --- you will see I posted data, at what point is it enough? Obviously it was enough for Jeff, who was very skeptical, but also open minded enough to give it a shot, and now he understands. Here is the thing.... The intercooler is a water / air intercooler. It is an was designed to be used that way, and was designed on cooperation with a well know and highly respected intercooler person / company. It costs you absolutely nothing to connect the air pump outlet to it. I mean it is right there, and it move huge amounts of air!!! No water lines to run, no heat exchanger, no water pump. So what the hell, it costs you nothing, so why not give a try??? Why be so closed minded, and if you don't like the results you see, then go ahead and finish it up with the water/ air install.

So lets move on hey

Last edited by victor25; 09-25-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:53 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by victor25 View Post
Yes Fabio my skin is worn a little thin at this point. And I completely understand why you guys like murf or others like that on here very much. It's just too much distraction and name calling. Too much DRAMA that is just not needed. I am trying to stay on the high road, but a few people are making it tough, while other are smart enough to do self edits LOL liked that one

If you go back and look through the thread you pointed out-- https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...-how-well.html --- you will see I posted data, at what point is it enough? Obviously it was enough for Jeff, who was very skeptical, but also open minded enough to give it a shot, and now he understands. Here is the thing.... The intercooler is a water / air intercooler. It is an was designed to be used that way, and was designed on cooperation with a well know and highly respected intercooler person / company. It costs you absolutely nothing to connect the air pump outlet to it. I mean it is right there, and it move huge amounts of air!!! No water lines to run, no heat exchanger, no water pump. So what the hell, it costs you nothing, so why not give a try??? Why be so closed minded, and if you don't like the results you see, then go ahead and finish it up with the water/ air install.

So lets move on hey
Let's be clear. I'm not asking questions because I like Tim Murphy. I do like Tim but I also like Dave Roberts and John Kuhn but I don't have any of their systems on my car. I have a one of a kind turbo system that I've been working on for awhile now. I have done alot of trial and error. Things that seem like they should work sometimes don't. It's been a long road for me and I have learned alot along the way. Once I get all of the bugs worked out, I'm planning on sharing it with the community. I'm thinking of presenting it as an open source boost project. I haven't shared it yet because it isn't ready to be peer reviewed. I've been around here ( Rennlist ) since 2005 and I've seen first hand what it takes to make the grade. I'm not there yet.

I've asked for specific data points that aren't provided in the link you posted. Therefore, the efficiency (or lack of) is impossible to calculate. If you don't want to give out that info, that's your choice. But don't be offended when people question the effectiveness of this radical method. It's not like you are keeping how you do it a secret. That part is already known. The unknown part is how well it works. If it works as well as you say it does I would think that you would be happy to publish the date. I guess not. Like I've already said. I don't doubt that your setup takes a little heat out of the charge but I can't see how it can be even close to adequate. There is a reason why air to air intercoolers ar so much larger than the air to water intercoolers. Water takes heat away from aluminum at a rate that is 14x that of air and aluminum. Therefore, an air/air intercooler has to have an area that is 14 times greater to get the same heat transfer if all else is equal. The smog pump will add some amount of heat to the air that is supposed to be used for cooling the charge air. This will add even more inneficiency to this style of intercooler setup. How much CFM does the smog pump move at a given RPM? Do you even offer a water/air option for someone? You allude to it on your website and your Ebay advert when you talk about the "Stage 2" which is designed for racing. Isn't your stage 2 the smog pump to air intercooler and a smaller pulley? My suggestion to you is this. Your installation looks very clean and well done. Don't get ahead of yourself by making trumped up claims. Come up with a water/air kit for your stage 2 and save yourself alot of trouble in the long run. Your customers will be happier in the end.

Moving on...

Good luck
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:13 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by GregBBRD View Post
...

I'm running stock MAF's, "to the absolute wall" at 380rwhp.

I also know that style stock clutch, with a bigger diaphram, will not properly hold down 380rwhp...they will slip.

And a stone stock automatic will last about 2 weeks.

They simply did not design these parts for 450chp. And when the pieces have a zillion miles on them, they will "hold" even less.
...
For me, this is real issue.. Is the car able to handle those HP?

It was design for 320-350 HP ....
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:33 PM
  #73  
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Fabio, thank you for setting the record straight on your abilities and project. And you are correct, I did jump ahead of myself on the intercooler. The intercooler is designed for water/air cooling in a stage 2 kit that is not ready for release yet. Guess I just go a little excited when I saw the results of what the air pump can do, and wanted to share it. No I do not know the volume or air moved by that pump at particular rpm. I just know it pumps a crap load of air as the rpms go up. That was my mistake, and will learn from my mistakes.

It is soooo much easier and appreciated when people ask direct questions, instead of making unfavorable comments, and or pointing a finger an laughing. I am happy to respond to all any any question that are presented to me. If I do not know the answer, I will say so, and try to get the information, and answers need. That is the purpose of a good forum, to share information
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:45 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by oups59 View Post
For me, this is real issue.. Is the car able to handle those HP?

It was design for 320-350 HP ....
That is a good question, and one that has been talked about many times on rennlist. IMO.. yes the car was designed for up to 380whp or maybe 400whp. This is why the engine grew to 5.4L and 350hp over the years. I think Porsche had plans for even more power, and thats why guys like Greg are able to get up to 6.5 liters. But that's just my opinion. I wonder if anyone knows the real answer to that quesion????
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:53 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by victor25 View Post
That is a good question, and one that has been talked about many times on rennlist. IMO.. yes the car was designed for up to 380whp or maybe 400whp. This is why the engine grew to 5.4L and 350hp over the years. I think Porsche had plans for even more power, and thats why guys like Greg are able to get up to 6.5 liters. But that's just my opinion. I wonder if anyone knows the real answer to that quesion????
No... I don't think anyone knows for sure what the limit is. Yes the MAF is maxed out at around 400WHP. The 91+ auto torque tubes also fail at about 400WHP. The single disc clutch also seems to crap out around 400 WHP. Everything else, so far seems to be able to go well beyond that. Does that mean it was designed for that level? Probably not, but who cares.

What is the limit? I think we are still finding out. Todd T is putting 825 HP at the wheels with a stock motor (never opened up) and stock transmission. So far so good.

I am running pretty damn near 500 at the wheels. And my system is probably the most demanding on the drivetrain with the low torque I make. But so far it's holding up. I hope it continues for a very long time too!

I think the rotrex, turbo, or vortech kits are much easier on the drivetrain components because the boost come on more gradually and thus should be able to withstand a lot of abuse for a long time.
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