Victor's Rotrex Supercharger Kit - Group Buy?
#121
So you think its just fine to compare Victor to the 19.99 Ebay guys. What a crock of ****. OK, continue the pissing match then that you want so bad and let's go. I think a lot people are really envious they cannot deliver the HP/cost ratio that Victor can. If you want to **** then let's ****. I tried to be civil but let's hear who has a better kit out there for the dependability, design, build qaulity and price point. If you want to get back to being civil just delete your last post and I will delete this one. Again dude, look at the overall picture and stop nitpicking when there is just as much evidence to prove Victors #'s as you have to validate yours. Without scientific evidence in controlled enviorments you have no claim to say you are 100% right. Did you even read his last post. I am guessing you did not.
#122
You know I usually try to stay civil Sean, but let's hear what kit he thinks is better than the one he is running down and comparing the seller to 19.99 Ebay guys. Let's consider all the factors like design, dependability, build qaulity, and cost for HP gains. I know there is a lot of great competion out there from some very dedicated guys and I can promise you that I am not going to run them down, I know the work and dedication they all have into their products. Anyone who can not state a point in a humble and courtious way is lacking a little pissing envy. IMHO
Last edited by rgs944; 09-24-2012 at 09:36 AM.
#123
I can not help but think that like big drilled rotors and painted calipers , really wide tires and large rims much of the appeal of a supercharger is WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE when you open the hood. Not sure it really matters how much power it makes just so it sounds like and looks like it might. And horsepower numbers ? one need only look at NOS threads to find you can make two thousand and see it discussed on video.
Having just been at the Bankruptcy auction I saw the results of over promising and under delivering. Nothing there would run at all including the Mustang and SS454 truck or car hauler which had a blower too ! and at least six dead 928 engines in a million pieces.
Having just been at the Bankruptcy auction I saw the results of over promising and under delivering. Nothing there would run at all including the Mustang and SS454 truck or car hauler which had a blower too ! and at least six dead 928 engines in a million pieces.
Last edited by rgs944; 09-24-2012 at 01:48 AM.
#126
I apoligize for saying a few un-civil things. Good for calling us out. Bottom line is that I think the #'s are close enough to any possible margin of error. Without controlled scientific testing with all the same variables I doubt we can ever know real #'s from car to car within a 50HP variance. If someone thinks HP #'s on this great kit are off by a 50 HP error just give us your reasoning and state it with a little respect to someone who has clearly engineered a great 928 product. That is my entire point.
Last edited by rgs944; 09-24-2012 at 09:33 AM.
#127
Mike, we should set the record straight here. Yes the dyno sheet for my car said 481hp and 426tq. BUT that was my car after a lot of tuning, a supermaf setup, different exhaust, and I let it go past 6lbs of boost, and yes no intercooler but a cool Michigan day, not Texas temps.
The stage 1 kit comes with a 80mm pulley to keep the boost from climbing to high. I guarantee you will get up to and over 450 crank HP no problem. The s4 is good up 450hp without any issues, beyond that things can get tricky. The biggest is the MAF, it's only good up to about 450, beyond it tuning gets a little weird.
The stage 1 kit comes with a 80mm pulley to keep the boost from climbing to high. I guarantee you will get up to and over 450 crank HP no problem. The s4 is good up 450hp without any issues, beyond that things can get tricky. The biggest is the MAF, it's only good up to about 450, beyond it tuning gets a little weird.
Last edited by rgs944; 09-24-2012 at 09:29 AM.
#128
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
There is no explanation/disclaimer on the site. I applaud Victor for trying to "set the record straight" but it's still not perfectly straight; definitely a step in the right direction. And I still believe a few independent dyno runs will clarify exactly what gains can be had from this system. I don't think anyone said the gains are not worthwhile, but I certainly care to know what those figures should be on average. I don't like the idea of just randomly adding "more power" without knowing the likely specifics.
#129
There is a picture on the website, under the products tab, of a dyno sheet. On the bottom, it states "89 Porsche 928s4 stage I supercharged. . . . 481 rear wheel hp" http://www.vcbengineering.com/#!products
There is no explanation/disclaimer on the site. I applaud Victor for trying to "set the record straight" but it's still not perfectly straight; definitely a step in the right direction. And I still believe a few independent dyno runs will clarify exactly what gains can be had from this system. I don't think anyone said the gains are not worthwhile, but I certainly care to know what those figures should be on average. I don't like the idea of just randomly adding "more power" without knowing the likely specifics.
There is no explanation/disclaimer on the site. I applaud Victor for trying to "set the record straight" but it's still not perfectly straight; definitely a step in the right direction. And I still believe a few independent dyno runs will clarify exactly what gains can be had from this system. I don't think anyone said the gains are not worthwhile, but I certainly care to know what those figures should be on average. I don't like the idea of just randomly adding "more power" without knowing the likely specifics.
#130
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think you're overreacting a little, though I'm not saying that others in this trhead haven't similarly overreacted. What's "spelled out" is actually very little, however. The text says expect gains to "well over 450 hp." Right next to a dyno specifying 481 hp at the wheels. I'm no scientist, but I prefer hard data to "mere puffery."
And you can lose weight eating at Subway; all you need to do is look at the data tied to what you order; things like calories, sugar content, and carb content. I lost 70 pounds in 6 months tracking such data. Data matters. Ask AO.
I think everyone just needs to take a breath and relax. We all love 928s, and some of us want to make ours go faster. How we go about that is a path, fortunately, currently rife with options, much like the Subway toppings trays. Personally, I like to make highly informed decisions when spending large amounts of money on modifying something I've already poured lots of money into. Not saying you don't. But saying that Victor's site is "abundantly clear" is, well, misleading.
And you can lose weight eating at Subway; all you need to do is look at the data tied to what you order; things like calories, sugar content, and carb content. I lost 70 pounds in 6 months tracking such data. Data matters. Ask AO.
I think everyone just needs to take a breath and relax. We all love 928s, and some of us want to make ours go faster. How we go about that is a path, fortunately, currently rife with options, much like the Subway toppings trays. Personally, I like to make highly informed decisions when spending large amounts of money on modifying something I've already poured lots of money into. Not saying you don't. But saying that Victor's site is "abundantly clear" is, well, misleading.
#131
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
And rgs944, why not go dyno your car? Appears to be in good working order and you're happy with the results. Put us out of our misery and dyno that sucker, please!
#132
I think you're overreacting a little, though I'm not saying that others in this trhead haven't similarly overreacted. What's "spelled out" is actually very little, however. The text says expect gains of "well over 450 hp." Right next to a dyno specifying 481 hp at the wheels. I'm no scientist, but I prefer hard data to "mere puffery."
And you can lose weight eating at Subway; all you need to do is look at the data tied to what you order; things like calories, sugar content, and carb content. I lost 70 pounds in 6 months tracking such data. Data matters. Ask AO.
I think everyone just needs to take a breath and relax. We all love 928s, and some of us want to make ours go faster. How we go about that is a path, fortunately, currently rife with options, much like the Subway toppings trays. Personally, I like to make highly informed decisions when spending large amounts of money on modifying something I've already poured lots of money into. Not saying you don't. But saying that Victor's site is "abundantly clear" is, well, misleading.
And you can lose weight eating at Subway; all you need to do is look at the data tied to what you order; things like calories, sugar content, and carb content. I lost 70 pounds in 6 months tracking such data. Data matters. Ask AO.
I think everyone just needs to take a breath and relax. We all love 928s, and some of us want to make ours go faster. How we go about that is a path, fortunately, currently rife with options, much like the Subway toppings trays. Personally, I like to make highly informed decisions when spending large amounts of money on modifying something I've already poured lots of money into. Not saying you don't. But saying that Victor's site is "abundantly clear" is, well, misleading.
#133
#134
The website spells out specifically that you can expect a 316 to 450 increase(about 130 average increase). That is well within line of what other kits are making with similiar boost. How could this be more abundantly clear. All you have to do is be able to read LARGE print and talk on the phone. Push the easy button now please. lol
#135
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I don't have a dog in this hunt so take this for what you will. Having just spent the weekend at the dyno I can only offer my observations, and this is what I see:
On Victor's posted dyno sheet, the stock dyno run date appears to be AFTER the 481 dyno run. Not sure why.
Nowhere on the dyno sheet does it list the environmental statistics such as temperature, barometric pressure, etc. I don't list them on my sheet, but they are captured. All of these factors are supposed to be taken into account as they can affect HP from one day to the next. I have personally seen a dyno operator mess with these things to give a bigger number. His rationale was that his customers were disappointed with the results so he bumped up the number to make happy customers!
Nowhere on the dyno does it list the boost level. I have a feeling this may be where the bulk of the disparity lies. Victor says 6psi. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. If you look at my dyno sheet from a DynoJet dyno, it clearly shows AFR and Boost in addition to MAX HP and MAX TQ. I know when you're at the dyno, you're focused on AFR or knock count.... not boost. You cannot control boost actively on the dyno. The car makes what it makes. All you can do is control fuel and timing - so that's what you focus on.
This weekend I saw a car making 8psi throw down 450+ at the rear wheels. I also got a ride in a 1,006 HP car. They are both incredibly fast! I'm sure Victor's kit is fast. But as Jim and Jim have both pointed out, when you make claims like Victor has (implied) in his signature, you need to be able to back them up. The dyno sheet Victor has provided attempts to do this. But in my opinion, it leaves some big open questions - not many, but a few key ones.
I don't think, for a moment, that Victor is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. We saw the same scrutiny when Carl sold kits, and when John Kuhn started selling turbos, and even a little when DR started. It's part of the learning curve.
I also don't think he's getting rich off these kits - in fact I would guarantee that at this point he's lost a lot of money on it. No one in this market has made a lot of money on SCer kits.
So, there are things to be skeptical about. There are also things to be excited about. Until there are a few more dyno sheets I, personally, will hold on to my skepticism. But yeah... boost is fun!
On Victor's posted dyno sheet, the stock dyno run date appears to be AFTER the 481 dyno run. Not sure why.
Nowhere on the dyno sheet does it list the environmental statistics such as temperature, barometric pressure, etc. I don't list them on my sheet, but they are captured. All of these factors are supposed to be taken into account as they can affect HP from one day to the next. I have personally seen a dyno operator mess with these things to give a bigger number. His rationale was that his customers were disappointed with the results so he bumped up the number to make happy customers!
Nowhere on the dyno does it list the boost level. I have a feeling this may be where the bulk of the disparity lies. Victor says 6psi. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. If you look at my dyno sheet from a DynoJet dyno, it clearly shows AFR and Boost in addition to MAX HP and MAX TQ. I know when you're at the dyno, you're focused on AFR or knock count.... not boost. You cannot control boost actively on the dyno. The car makes what it makes. All you can do is control fuel and timing - so that's what you focus on.
This weekend I saw a car making 8psi throw down 450+ at the rear wheels. I also got a ride in a 1,006 HP car. They are both incredibly fast! I'm sure Victor's kit is fast. But as Jim and Jim have both pointed out, when you make claims like Victor has (implied) in his signature, you need to be able to back them up. The dyno sheet Victor has provided attempts to do this. But in my opinion, it leaves some big open questions - not many, but a few key ones.
I don't think, for a moment, that Victor is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. We saw the same scrutiny when Carl sold kits, and when John Kuhn started selling turbos, and even a little when DR started. It's part of the learning curve.
I also don't think he's getting rich off these kits - in fact I would guarantee that at this point he's lost a lot of money on it. No one in this market has made a lot of money on SCer kits.
So, there are things to be skeptical about. There are also things to be excited about. Until there are a few more dyno sheets I, personally, will hold on to my skepticism. But yeah... boost is fun!