j.kenzie@sbcglobal.net

Hi Carl,
I have seen pictures of your aluminum radiators and they look beautiful. I have read that their weakness, if there is one, is the quality of the cores available for their manufacture. Can you give us an idea of the failure rate of the current product?
BTW my 29 year old OEM Behr unit developed a tank seal leak recently. I bought new tank and seal for $85, and paid $80 labor to have it fixed. It's working fine again.
Thanks,
Dave

GregBBRD

When I looked into building radiators for the 928 models, I researched the "problems" with all of the aftermarket radiators, that had been built to that date. I sat down and talked with one of the largest aftermarket radiator makers on the West Coast. I took them samples of every radiator that had ever been built....so that we could talk about building a high quality radiator, realistically.

Here's what he told me:

"The central core in the Behr radiator is an extremely high quality part. These cores were obviously manufactured many years ago.....if they were built today, the cost would be very high. The reality of building a high quality replacement radiator is that to get a core that is of the same quality as the original Behr unit would make the cost of that central core over $1000.....which is $300 more than others are selling a complete radiator. Add in the cost of high quality oil coolers and the cost of making the tanks and you will end up with a $2,000 radiator.

How many people are going to buy that over the $695 "throw-away" replacement radiators?"

The finish of our meeting went like this:

When Behr runs out of radiators....and people get tired of replacing their "cheap, throw away" radiators every 5 years....come and talk to me, again."

hacker-pschorr

What do you think about the "theory" of mixing coolant causing the problem? Most good shops do a full flush when a water pump or radiator is replaced. Many "shade tree" mechanics simply top off. I'm willing to bet most "shade tree" work goes for generic coolant and tap water.
I've always believed this "mixing" is where the problems start, not necessarily the coolant used as long as it's the only coolant in the system.
I have zero science to back this up, just a thought.

When I did the engine out service on my fathers Ferrari 355 I was very paranoid about what coolant to use. The Ferrari guru's recommended the Mercedes branded Zerex G-05. Just another data point, I have no doubt the Porsche stuff is top notch. Especially if it's re-labelled Pentosin as "z driver 88t" pointed out:
Really Carl?
You know darn well he's talking about 100% aluminum radiators with aluminum welded or epoxied side tanks. I'm sure some have lasted longer than 4-5 years but they don't exactly have the best tract record by any means.
Every shop owner I know shy's away from all aftermarket radiators, unless there is simply no other option (like a Maserati Ghibli a friend of mine in Green Bay restored a couple years ago - no OEM option, had one custom made).

Why are they prone to failure? I have no clue and I'm not about to speculate on theories.


Disclaimer: The only 100% all aluminum radiators I have any experience with are the ones made by Twin Turbo Todd who uses OEM BEHR cores and welds on his own side tanks.

Carl Fausett

Post 31 on this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...l#post10530346

And post 72 of the same thread:
Since that thread was published, I have had no more radiator warranty claims, so we now stand at 6 reported core failures (all that were replaced without cost) in 256 installs

z driver 88t

I am curious if there is really widespread aluminum radiator failure or are the reported failures a small subset of the overall volume of aluminum radiators out there. I have a theory that while these aftermarket AL rads may not have quite the longevity or quality control of the OEM Behr unit, they are probably fairly stout and likely to provide a long service life as long as they are well maintained with good coolant.

If Greg is correct and the original Behr core would be impossible to produce today for a low cost then I would presume the units Behr is designing and building today are fairly low quality since a brand new Behr radiator for a BMW 325i or 540i can be purchased for $150-$170 on line.

The Behr radiators from a Porsche 996 or 997 are only $224 on line, so in some respect Porsche owners get screwed for the Porsche badge since I doubt there is anyting magical about a Behr for a 996 over a Behr for a 540i, but in either case they are vastly less expensive than what Behr is currently charging for the 928 radiator.

I'm sure someone will argue economies of scale and there just isn't a high enough demand for 928 radiators to produce them in a volume high enough to keep the costs low, but even a Behr unit for a 282HP 1988 BMW M5 which had much lower production numbers (2191 total E28 M5s from 1985 to 1988) than the 928 is only $370 on line.

And since the pattern and tooling already exists I find it hard to believe it should cost so much more for Behr to continue producing an existing design for the 928 than for a very limited production M5 or a higher volume 540i/996/997, etc. I can understand some premium for exclusivity and low production numbers. In the example above the M5 radiator is 2X the cost of a basic 5 Series. But $1000 or more is outrageous.

So my main issue is that I am just annoyed as hell with Behr for setting up their pricing structure in a way that really gives us the short end of the stick and in a way that to me is unjustifiable based on the rationale above.

As I recall, I think the 928MS aluminum radiators are actually built by Howe which has been making aluminum radiators for 30 years and has a pretty good reputation. Certainly my 928MS radiaotr appeared to be a higher quality product than a Japanese Koyo aluminum radiator I previously had in a Z car which had weak welds and soft material around the neck. However, my experience with these is purely anecdotal. YMMV.

My 928MS radiator has been in for 2 years with no issues so far. I will report back a year 5 to let you know if it is leaking.

Carl Fausett

Hacker: you know I am just responding to this kind of hyperbole: As quickly as he can call after-market radiators "throw-away" I can call radiators with plastic end tanks "throw-away" also. The plastic has started aging since the day it left the mold, so those that are NOS are already starting to embrittle themselves.

The facts are we have these radiators out there since 2009 - so we have not hit the "magic" 5-year aging point yet and nobody knows how they will be performing then. But they are doing very well so far.

I do believe the 928 owner will benefit from the very soft rubber mounting somewhat unique to this car, whereas common hot rods and others that solid-mount (or nearly solid) their all-aluminum rad make a bad name for the after-market industry when they crack, blaming the radiator, but its really the mounting with no compliance in the system that is at fault.

Those large rubber mounts the 928 has will be the difference, I think. See you at 5 years, and then we will know. Right now, we're all guessing.

PS: and lets not forget that the leaking/failure of the Behr rad is not the only reason people buy our radiator. Some buy our radiator because they cannot keep the temps down with the stock rad and want the extra 1/4" of coolant core and capacity that ours provides.

Carl Fausett

Yes, that is correct.

Excellent. Please do that.

...and how have your temps compared since going to our radiator?

fraggle

I had to replace a Behr on a 996 turbo last year, it was 8 or 9 years old. Most 928 radiators are 25 years old at this point. My aluminum C&R has been in my 928 three years and counting. If it breaks, it breaks. Sure I'd like this stuff to be cheaper, but nothing lasts forever. A bad run on a low production part like this can haunt the market for years.

z driver 88t

Carl, the performance of the 928MS radiator has been very good in central Florida heat even with the AC on. I have been very happy with the performance and would recommend it without hesitation.

Keep in mind, however, I really had no issues with my original Behr unit with regards to cooling capacity. My car never overheated. I had the typical end tank failure and your radiator was both more affordable than OEM and just plain looks good in engine bay over the OEM Behr replacement.

Once I added Roger's replica stickers to the top of it, it looks like the OEM unit that should have been there all along.

GregBBRD

Holy crap.

Seems to be a problem with either my wording or with reading comprehension. I'll reword and try to make it as simple as possible.....

Sum up the entire thread..................

There are no absolutes in the automotive world....of course. There are going to be exceptions to everything. When I'm talking about failures of certain products.....I'm not talking in absolutes....but in high percentages.

No matter how much crap Carl tries to sling at me.....the 928 "aftermarket radiator" success ratio is pitifully bad.....and certainly no one that has been involved in the 928 world for many years would dispute that. All the 928 people that have been involved with 928s for many years have all heard the horror stories, since the very first of the Devek radiators started to leak. Hell, Mark Anderson had a beautiful aluminum radiator (which had some failures) and decided to no longer have it made.....especially since there was a large quantity of Behr units available.

Here's my point...one of only two, in this thread:

The "928 aftermarket aluminum radiator", historically, has a very high percentage of failure, after short periods of time. The original Behr radiators, historically, have a very low percentage of failures until they have over 20 years of use.

That's all I'm saying. That's all I have been saying.

It's really stupid to try and dispute that statement and even more stupid to try and twist it into something else.





I frankly don't care how good or how bad Carl's radiators happen to be or how many he claims he's sold. It's, quite simply, a non-starter, for me.

Why?

That was my second point, in this thread.

Quite simply:

I've researched building 928 radiators and I'm educated enough to know what it costs to buy a "high quality" core, as the initial starting point.

Do some backwards math, subtract tanks, oil coolers, labor, profit for Carl and profit for whoever makes those radiators.....

How much did that "core" cost? How long do you think it will last?

You decide.

I already have.

Carl Fausett

I knew it. You weren't talking about after-market aluminum rads in general - you had found another excuse to try to crap on just my products.

2%failure rate over 250 radiators spanning 4 years is something I am proud of, especially at our low-volume hand-made levels and our price-point (which is a damnsite better than yours).

But falsely disparaging our rad just so you can (hopefully) move some of your old shelf stock - I wouldn't be so proud of that.

Carl Fausett

Chris, thank you for your review.

Carl

Carl Fausett

+1 Excellent post.

Gretch

you two are something else........

Do EITHER of you believe ANYONE here thinks highly of your childish cat fighting? At best people are amused by you two girls.

Such tedious bull****.......... grow up, both of you.

Sorry Jeff, I closed it before either of these two break a nail.........