hb4

That is my, now previous, torque converter split in half like a bagel. I took it to Cascade Torque Converters in Marysville today to see if there was something inside that would point to a cause.

Once opened, it revealed itself as a 2500RPM stall converter that was either fabricated like that, or deformed in use. Seems that these vanes should all be the same shape, and maybe there's something about the fluid dynamics inside these that cause a vibration peak rather than a continuous vibration throughout the RPM range.

There were a couple other items that Cascade pointed out were not best practices; A severely cut away stator, and brass soldered innards. Also found out that the hub that presses against the case at higher RPMs was worn. Apparently one side effect of the cut away stator for stall speed is less efficiency at higher RPMs. The good news was that it was clean as a whistle inside. I've attached a couple more photos below.

Black Sea RD

Hi Bill,

Well if anything this TC was not a good thing being in your driveline.

What did the shop say about it and your symptoms, could this be the cause of most of your vibration problems as we discussed on the phone?

What are your plans, are you going to replace it with a stock TC?

supercedar

That is our slave cylinder for the Roger box.
You need to come visit us soon
Thomas

hb4

Constantine,

They had a rebuilt stock TC on the shelf that I came home with and will install. These guys.... Cascade Torque Converters are great and their prices are very very good.

They felt that the bent vanes could have set up a vibration at 3K. Time will tell.

BTW, I want to check the location of the bearings in the TT; You said the damper should be 15" from the Trans end. Is that measurement to the aft side of the damper, or center? How far should the center and front bearings be?

DanielD

I had a bad torque converter a few years ago. It would vibrate at speed a bit but that was nothing compared to the shaking going on at idle. A shop in Panama City, Smith's Motorworks, replaced the torque converter and it cured the problem. All has been well since. Looks like torque converters do fail after all. The folks at Motorworks had never seen one cause the whole car to shake at idle...

Bill Ball

Sorry I did not see the pictures of your pump and piston until today. I had different but equally baffling marks on the inside of the rear pump snout, although my piston seemed fine. MAYBE these apparent contact marks were caused by the oscillating TC vibrating the input shaft side to side. The thrust washers and bearing are probably still on the shaft. Those marks look like slight rubs. It would be nice if you could reinstall those parts because getting replacements will be problematic unless you have a spare donor tranny like I did.

supercedar

Bill,
In the picture of the pump the thrust washer is not there, and it is not anywhere to be found. This is what confuses me. I am still trying to confirm that this trans does need this thrust washer. I see notes in the WSM that it is not used on 89 or newer trans. My question to you is did your trans have one? Your pictures did not show one either. But looking at the end with the oil journal makes me think it should be.
Thank you
Thomas

Bill Ball

The radial bearing, thrust washer and shim(s) are in the front of the K1 pack - between it and the snout of the pump, and would not stay behind on the input shaft, as I said before. See PET image below. You don't show the K1 pack. The radial bearing is on the top of the stack with the washer and shim behind it. I see nothing about that changing in 89. A LOT of part numbers changed in 89 and it really confused me. I ended up mixing an 88 pump, piston and K1 in with my tranny and it worked. With these substitute parts I verified clearance for the radial bearing and thrust washer/shim stack as shown in the WSM. Like I said, I think you can reinstall your current parts.

supercedar

The thrust washer I am referring to is the one that is on the end of the primary pump. It shows in the WSM page 151-38 and is item #1. I wish I had the PET for the mercedes trans.
Thomas

hb4

Primary Pump Washer Question:

Thomas asked me to post the info about the thrust washer question we asked earlier. To recap, Thomas' transmission had a separate thrust washer, mine doesn't, and we're asking Bill Ball if his had one. Here are the relevant images:

1. The WSM showing the washer (Item #1)


2. Bill Ball's Primary Pump


3. My Primary Pump

supercedar

Thank you HB4 for posting this explanation. The end of the pump stub where the thrust washer can be used is the cause of my frustration with this. I see this stub rides on a radial bearing, but I cannot accept the fact that it will ride on the rough edge of the stub. Now when you use the thrust washer I can see a smoother fit. Also, when I see the hole (oil journal) at the end of primary pump stub it tells me it would lubricate this missing thrust washer. The reason I am **** about this is the wear patterns (damage)on both Bill Ball's and Bill's HB4 pump stubs.
Thomas

Bill Ball

Oh, THAT! Well, no, I did not notice that on my 89 or the replacement 88 pump. Here are pics. First is my 89. Second is the 88. PET shows no separate washer for any year.

supercedar

Now we are getting somewhere. I must say that is a beauty that you have installed. Mine had it installed on the 88, the WSM shows it in the drawings, but the PET makes no mention. In the WSM it does state at the bottom of page that this thrust washer is deleted after xxxxx serial #s. I think this could be a reason for damage in this area. Not a expert by any means but my trans was a factory rebuilt and the thrust is installed, and it shows no damage to this area we are talking about. Something to watch for in the future. Now I need to find out if HB4's car should have one.
Thomas

hb4

Update:
Installed bolts, washers, nuts in lieu of rivets in the flex plate to hub connection per a WSM bulletin.


Tried to fit the TC and the mounting pads were wrong. Exchanged it for the correct one.

Tried to assemble the Primary Pump piston and damaged the smaller "L-shaped" seal. Really needs to be assembled with a press and tool. Inspected the old one and it seemed fine so put it back in.

Tried to move the TT damper toward the flywheel but it doesn't budge. Considering taking the TT and driveshaft out and pulling it fwd with an allthread and plug; however....

This was a replacement TT about 10 yrs and 40K miles ago to the tune of $3.4K and the damper, 3" from the trans end, looks brand new. I think the TT, bearings, and damper were purchased assembled as a unit since I don't think people were replacing bearings back then and there's no separate PET numbers for the inside parts. As tight as the damper is, I can't imagine that it has moved or was moved when the TT was installed.

I understand that the correct distance should be abt 15" from the trans end, but wondering why it would have been placed where it is as a factory replacement part.

Mrmerlin

AHHH what is the grade of those bolts?
best be 10 or 12 and have red loctite on them.