Rust Repair
08-30-2011, 08:01 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
Its already been decided - but here's some pics from a guy here in Oz who had rust issues on an ex-UK car.
One pic is the rust problem, the other is the section cut out of a parts car.
The cut out section was trimmed to fit, then tacked into place, followed by a little filler to smooth it out.
One pic is the rust problem, the other is the section cut out of a parts car.
The cut out section was trimmed to fit, then tacked into place, followed by a little filler to smooth it out.
08-30-2011, 10:51 PM
#32
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You will warp the hell out of the panel if you try to gas weld that.
If it were mine I would grind it down, then use a mig to weld up any holes, wipe it with good filler and call it a day.
If it were mine I would grind it down, then use a mig to weld up any holes, wipe it with good filler and call it a day.
I am accused in another thread of always thinking the worst. Here, however, I am thinking that just about every suggestion is worse than mine.
What you are going to find when you scrape the blistered paint off of this area is that the holes of rust are really not too much more than pin holes. A little more but not much. Then you will see that just small pieces of sheet metal will be needed to fill the holes once you have cut the rusted material away in the rust holes.
The welding can be done readily with a torch (oxy/acetelene) and even without the usual need to hammer weld the seams. Do butt welds. Then the total area(s) involved with patches will be very small and not so succeptable to rust in the future. You can cover the backs of the welds with primer and undercoating and they will likely last the life of the rest of the car, even with the zinc burned off.
The bigger you make the panel repair the bigger will be the area covered by burned off zinc, so keep them small. With the zinc coating on the car already it is likely that the rust holes are very small and isolated, so that the patches will not need to be very big. Since they are so small and in such a tightly curved area you will not need to do the hammer welding as stated above.
Bring it over here and I will show you how to do it.
Jerry Feather
What you are going to find when you scrape the blistered paint off of this area is that the holes of rust are really not too much more than pin holes. A little more but not much. Then you will see that just small pieces of sheet metal will be needed to fill the holes once you have cut the rusted material away in the rust holes.
The welding can be done readily with a torch (oxy/acetelene) and even without the usual need to hammer weld the seams. Do butt welds. Then the total area(s) involved with patches will be very small and not so succeptable to rust in the future. You can cover the backs of the welds with primer and undercoating and they will likely last the life of the rest of the car, even with the zinc burned off.
The bigger you make the panel repair the bigger will be the area covered by burned off zinc, so keep them small. With the zinc coating on the car already it is likely that the rust holes are very small and isolated, so that the patches will not need to be very big. Since they are so small and in such a tightly curved area you will not need to do the hammer welding as stated above.
Bring it over here and I will show you how to do it.
Jerry Feather
08-31-2011, 01:53 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
From the pictures of the car in question it is very clear that the rust area is way bigger than the pot that is rusted through. If you weld only the small sections, you will leave the othe alreay rusty parts exposed to the elements. The rustbug will continue to eat it's way. I like the method that is shown above with the section cut out. That is exactly what I meant.
08-31-2011, 02:46 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
These, and some coaching from Greg...
http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/pts/2537918201.html
(no affiliation... and not sure if they are intact / usable or cobbled-up)
Or check with nosnow ---- https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...928-parts.html
http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/pts/2537918201.html
(no affiliation... and not sure if they are intact / usable or cobbled-up)
Or check with nosnow ---- https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...928-parts.html
08-31-2011, 08:43 AM
#36
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I am accused in another thread of always thinking the worst. Here, however, I am thinking that just about every suggestion is worse than mine.
What you are going to find when you scrape the blistered paint off of this area is that the holes of rust are really not too much more than pin holes. A little more but not much. Then you will see that just small pieces of sheet metal will be needed to fill the holes once you have cut the rusted material away in the rust holes.
The welding can be done readily with a torch (oxy/acetelene) and even without the usual need to hammer weld the seams. Do butt welds. Then the total area(s) involved with patches will be very small and not so succeptable to rust in the future. You can cover the backs of the welds with primer and undercoating and they will likely last the life of the rest of the car, even with the zinc burned off.
The bigger you make the panel repair the bigger will be the area covered by burned off zinc, so keep them small. With the zinc coating on the car already it is likely that the rust holes are very small and isolated, so that the patches will not need to be very big. Since they are so small and in such a tightly curved area you will not need to do the hammer welding as stated above.
Bring it over here and I will show you how to do it.
Jerry Feather
What you are going to find when you scrape the blistered paint off of this area is that the holes of rust are really not too much more than pin holes. A little more but not much. Then you will see that just small pieces of sheet metal will be needed to fill the holes once you have cut the rusted material away in the rust holes.
The welding can be done readily with a torch (oxy/acetelene) and even without the usual need to hammer weld the seams. Do butt welds. Then the total area(s) involved with patches will be very small and not so succeptable to rust in the future. You can cover the backs of the welds with primer and undercoating and they will likely last the life of the rest of the car, even with the zinc burned off.
The bigger you make the panel repair the bigger will be the area covered by burned off zinc, so keep them small. With the zinc coating on the car already it is likely that the rust holes are very small and isolated, so that the patches will not need to be very big. Since they are so small and in such a tightly curved area you will not need to do the hammer welding as stated above.
Bring it over here and I will show you how to do it.
Jerry Feather
08-31-2011, 08:47 AM
#37
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These, and some coaching from Greg...
http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/pts/2537918201.html
(no affiliation... and not sure if they are intact / usable or cobbled-up)
Or check with nosnow ---- https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...928-parts.html
http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/pts/2537918201.html
(no affiliation... and not sure if they are intact / usable or cobbled-up)
Or check with nosnow ---- https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...928-parts.html
08-31-2011, 02:15 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
It is always best to use the complete panels of course but be prepared for a lot more rust damaged items in the right rear wheel arch. To start with: the inside wheel arch including the seam you want to weld the new panel on. Also: all brackets for the fuel line, tankstrap, fuel filter, fuel accumulator. I had to remanufacture them all. Typical WYAIT or whatsitcalled.
09-01-2011, 05:31 AM
#40
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Yes even with minor rust I have found the lines under the fender and other things to be messed up.
One thing I noticed when stripping the paint that Porsche attached most of the panels with brass brazing. In experiments on race car frames we found out that brass brazing was stronger than gas welding. The temperatures involved in gas welding weaken the metal and make it brittle. Brazing is at a lower temperature and actually makes a stronger repair. In looking at the margins it appeared the zinc galvalinzing was not harmed by the brazing where when I have gas welded panels the zinc coating is destroyed for a larger area. Something to consider when making rust repairs.
One thing I noticed when stripping the paint that Porsche attached most of the panels with brass brazing. In experiments on race car frames we found out that brass brazing was stronger than gas welding. The temperatures involved in gas welding weaken the metal and make it brittle. Brazing is at a lower temperature and actually makes a stronger repair. In looking at the margins it appeared the zinc galvalinzing was not harmed by the brazing where when I have gas welded panels the zinc coating is destroyed for a larger area. Something to consider when making rust repairs.
09-04-2011, 03:43 AM
#41
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I am planning on pretty much disassembling most of the car for it repaint. I do not want to miss anything. I think this car will be around for some time.
09-05-2011, 10:37 PM
#42
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The vulnerable points for rust that I have seen are - as you noted around the back of the quarter windows, under the rear spoiler on the hatch, around the rear bumper, the gas pipes behind the right rear tire (there is no splash panel there), the upper corners of the windshield, the gas lines under the car, the alignment ajustment bolts on the rear trailing arms, all of the cad plated hardware, the strap for the gas tank and the bolts on the exhaust system. Of course I live in California so I am sure the east coast guys could come up with more trouble spots. I have heard of some nasty battery boxes and the connectors on the wiring harnesses.
09-06-2011, 07:56 PM
#43
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[QUOTE=blown 87;8831473]You will warp the hell out of the panel if you try to gas weld that.QUOTE]
Personally I resent this remark. If you were saying this sort of out in the open I would be less concerned about it, but you are saying it in direct response to my post about how I would help fix this problem.
If I had said that I would help the OP "try" to do this, that would be one thing, but I told him that if he brought his car here "I WOULD SHOW HIM HOW TO DO IT!!!"
That clearly indicates that I know how to do this and can do it with gas welding. For you to say that it cannot be done with gas welding without warping the panels says that I am full of $hit and cannot do it.
If you have any experience with panel welding I would be interested to know what your experience is and what your basis is for stating that panels cannot be gas welded without warping. The fact is I suspect that you don't have a clue and don't even have a torch, or any kind of welder, for that matter.
Enough said.
Jerry Feather
Personally I resent this remark. If you were saying this sort of out in the open I would be less concerned about it, but you are saying it in direct response to my post about how I would help fix this problem.
If I had said that I would help the OP "try" to do this, that would be one thing, but I told him that if he brought his car here "I WOULD SHOW HIM HOW TO DO IT!!!"
That clearly indicates that I know how to do this and can do it with gas welding. For you to say that it cannot be done with gas welding without warping the panels says that I am full of $hit and cannot do it.
If you have any experience with panel welding I would be interested to know what your experience is and what your basis is for stating that panels cannot be gas welded without warping. The fact is I suspect that you don't have a clue and don't even have a torch, or any kind of welder, for that matter.
Enough said.
Jerry Feather
09-06-2011, 10:04 PM
#44
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Pretty common knowledge that gas welding WILL warp panels, even with a lot of heat sink, that is just one of the reasons no (few, as I am sure that there are some back woods shops that can not afford a MIG still use it) body shops use it.
It gets old doing a 1/4 inch at a time and letting it cool off.
As far as me not having a welder, I really do not care what you think.
Why would you suggest something that is simply not done in any professional shop that I am aware of.
Gas and stick welding body panels is outlawed in some countries, like the UK. (why is that?)
Gas welding body panels can be done, takes a lot of time, (to limit the amount of warping) heat sink and skill, but again, nobody does it in a real shop that I am aware of.
As far as my experience as a metal guy, I was the metal guy for a restoration shop that did 50's and 60's resto's and mods, East Coast Customs in Riverdale GA, that was all I did, no paint, no bondo, just metal work, they are no longer open due to the owner being killed.
Oh, BTW, to gas weld it is Jerry Rigging it in my book, now that is enough said.
It gets old doing a 1/4 inch at a time and letting it cool off.
As far as me not having a welder, I really do not care what you think.
Why would you suggest something that is simply not done in any professional shop that I am aware of.
Gas and stick welding body panels is outlawed in some countries, like the UK. (why is that?)
Gas welding body panels can be done, takes a lot of time, (to limit the amount of warping) heat sink and skill, but again, nobody does it in a real shop that I am aware of.
As far as my experience as a metal guy, I was the metal guy for a restoration shop that did 50's and 60's resto's and mods, East Coast Customs in Riverdale GA, that was all I did, no paint, no bondo, just metal work, they are no longer open due to the owner being killed.
Oh, BTW, to gas weld it is Jerry Rigging it in my book, now that is enough said.
You will warp the hell out of the panel if you try to gas weld that.QUOTE]
Personally I resent this remark. If you were saying this sort of out in the open I would be less concerned about it, but you are saying it in direct response to my post about how I would help fix this problem.
If I had said that I would help the OP "try" to do this, that would be one thing, but I told him that if he brought his car here "I WOULD SHOW HIM HOW TO DO IT!!!"
That clearly indicates that I know how to do this and can do it with gas welding. For you to say that it cannot be done with gas welding without warping the panels says that I am full of $hit and cannot do it.
If you have any experience with panel welding I would be interested to know what your experience is and what your basis is for stating that panels cannot be gas welded without warping. The fact is I suspect that you don't have a clue and don't even have a torch, or any kind of welder, for that matter.
Enough said.
Jerry Feather
Personally I resent this remark. If you were saying this sort of out in the open I would be less concerned about it, but you are saying it in direct response to my post about how I would help fix this problem.
If I had said that I would help the OP "try" to do this, that would be one thing, but I told him that if he brought his car here "I WOULD SHOW HIM HOW TO DO IT!!!"
That clearly indicates that I know how to do this and can do it with gas welding. For you to say that it cannot be done with gas welding without warping the panels says that I am full of $hit and cannot do it.
If you have any experience with panel welding I would be interested to know what your experience is and what your basis is for stating that panels cannot be gas welded without warping. The fact is I suspect that you don't have a clue and don't even have a torch, or any kind of welder, for that matter.
Enough said.
Jerry Feather
09-06-2011, 10:50 PM
#45
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Greg, It is obvious that you were doing 50' and 60's cars in likely the 80' or 90's or even later so you don't have a clue about how to do panel welding with gas. I was not talking about having a shop do it now for the OP, but rather how it could be done the best way that he and or I would be able to do it, with gas and without panel warpage.
I don't know why gas welding of panels went away except to suggest that it is cheaper and faster to do it some easier sloppier way with tig or mig in little tack welds and then fill it all in with bondo. You may still want to recommend that for the OP, but I still have the offer open to come here and learn how to do it correctly and without panel warpage in the process.
Jerry Feather
I don't know why gas welding of panels went away except to suggest that it is cheaper and faster to do it some easier sloppier way with tig or mig in little tack welds and then fill it all in with bondo. You may still want to recommend that for the OP, but I still have the offer open to come here and learn how to do it correctly and without panel warpage in the process.
Jerry Feather