What company best at building Stroker engines from scratch?
11-26-2012, 03:09 PM
#241
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I doubt that Greg Brown would really want to get involved at this point. He is very particular about the bits and pieces that go into his engines and might not wish to be the last pair of hands touching an engine such as this. For it would NEVER be a Greg Brown build !! Yet if he "worked on it" his reputation is at stake !
11-26-2012, 06:14 PM
#242
Nordschleife Master
If you want resolution with this motor I don't see a practical alternative to shipping it back to Carl.
The bottom line, its out of the legal warranty period, airing dirty laundry here rarely proves effective, and you have now done it, there isn't anything to be gained from more of it. You or the buyer (if you choose to sell it) will need to send everything it needs to be run with in the target car to Carl and let him sort it out.
As is often the case with a 928 saving money can be expensive.
The bottom line, its out of the legal warranty period, airing dirty laundry here rarely proves effective, and you have now done it, there isn't anything to be gained from more of it. You or the buyer (if you choose to sell it) will need to send everything it needs to be run with in the target car to Carl and let him sort it out.
As is often the case with a 928 saving money can be expensive.
11-26-2012, 06:22 PM
#243
Nordschleife Master
The most likely way to recover any of your money at this stage is to part out the stroker motor.
Not sure the heads or block will have any value, given the work done to them or subsequent running issues, but the cams/stroker crank/rods/pistons/valves might, depending on measurements/condition, as well as any stock-fitting bits (plug wires, dist caps, cam covers, cam gears etc.)
Its unfortunate that you waited this long to make your first post on Rennlist, and that your 928 experience may have left a bad taste in your mouth. Good luck with your next car!
Not sure the heads or block will have any value, given the work done to them or subsequent running issues, but the cams/stroker crank/rods/pistons/valves might, depending on measurements/condition, as well as any stock-fitting bits (plug wires, dist caps, cam covers, cam gears etc.)
Its unfortunate that you waited this long to make your first post on Rennlist, and that your 928 experience may have left a bad taste in your mouth. Good luck with your next car!
11-26-2012, 06:49 PM
#244
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If engine was said to work with '87-95 intake block should have been modified. Its not a big deal to do it but it should be done before any modifications to the block simply to make sure there are no complications after the build. Knowing that '85-86 5L block need to be modified is one of those things which simply need to be known when building stroker engine.
11-26-2012, 07:52 PM
#245
Nordschleife Master
Agreed with Erkka, one must know that those bosses must be removed, preferably prior to the nikasiling process. The 85/86 blocks are preferred by many due to the thicker cylinder liners.
11-26-2012, 07:57 PM
#246
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ahhhh.... RL DRAMA!!!
11-26-2012, 08:00 PM
#247
Captain Obvious
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Istead of pulling the engine and shipping it and considering that it cost $30K, wouldn't have been simpler for both parties, if Carl would have flown over and had a quick look at the engine?
11-26-2012, 08:17 PM
#248
Nordschleife Master
A lot of crazy stuff in this thread.
I do think that we should be able to compare same brand chassis dyno results across cars. For example, averaging the Dynojet SAE corrected hp over say 2000 rpm range will in my opinion give a result that is roughly comparable across cars. With other cars, it seems that those results correlate pretty well with things like trap speeds. Yes, the tire spin is a problem, but glue and ballast cure that. At higher gears which are more useful for tuning, the Dynojet tire speed limits that are also one constraint. That all said, I don't think it's justified for anyone to just dismiss the chassis dyno results.
To map an engine, of course it's better to put an engine to an engine dyno. The problem is that most people can't afford to do so. Pull the engine, spend a day setting it up on an engine dyno, then day tuning, and then put it back in the car. That's $5k in the best case scenario, which is pure guess since I've never had an engine on an engine dyno. I found one facility here in case it ever gets to that, although I doubt it ever will.
For my limited mapping needs and abilities, I've found the Dynapack dynos to be useful. I would buy one for home but it's a complete non-starter in our little cul-de-sac with zoning that prevents snoring with a window open. The tire slippage factor is eliminated as the dyno bolts on in place of the wheels. With turbos, the version that holds 3500 NM at 2400 rpm appears workable on fourth and fifth gears. Cooling is still a problem. Most dyno facilities seem to have high speed fans for the radiator, but intercoolers don't get cooled. In my current dyno setup, for intercoolers I have two 1600 CFM fans (they fit on the back seats) and a garden hose. I don't think I've ever held the car under full load for 60 seconds, but I think I've done 30 seconds. 30 seconds feels like a lifetime in that setting, by the way.
The stock clutch doesn't really hold, what else is new. I have a Spec 3+ clutch which does not slip and will work ok when shifting but that stutters sometimes when taking off from a parking lot. I wouldn't want to recommend that clutch to anyone, but it does seem to hold under my chosen torque level.
Then there's the transmission question. I have not broken any transmissions. I have a spare 5 speed from a GT waiting in the garage, so maybe the existence of a spare has "jinxed" my attempts to blow up the transmission. After thinking about the transmission a bit, I've come to the following conclusions. To break these five speed transmissions, one needs sticky tires on track, a lot of torque, and overheating. I am limiting the torque to 500 ft-lbs at the torque tube side of the transmission with the boost controller. My tires aren't sticky and the Dynapack is very well controlled not to "jerk" no matter what. High speed, slicks, and bumps on a track will put loads on that transmission that are probable greater than what these motors can produce. Finally, although it seems easy to "cook" the intercoolers on a dyno, I don't think short load session on a chassis dyno really put that much heat in the transmission. My theory of what really kills these transmissions is the case heating up and expanding more than the shafts and gears, slightly pulling the gears apart and concentrating the load. Just a theory.
All in all, despite having a clutch that doesn't slip and despite of not having broken a 5-speed transmission and despite of not having the stock engine grenade on me, I still (perhaps naively) believe that the car is producing the power than Dynojet and Dynapack read... Next spring, I will be happy to join anyone more experienced in an open-night drag strip session in Northeast. I am kind of curious what the actual trap speeds will look like.
I can't agree _at all_ with the claim that forced induction power is less reliable than strokers. If you spend the same amount of money to make the same amount of power, turbo/supercharging gives you the best and not the worst reliability. Increasing displacement gives you the second highest level of reliability. Squeezing more power out of the stock displacement by turning the engine over more is inherently the least reliable way to make the same power with the same dollars, but it also gives you the greatest bragging rights. "Why did I do it that way? Because I could."
At some point of this very long thread, I recall there been a criticism of the active head scavenging system. It's my understanding that this system was built to solve one oiling problem in a brute force but reliable way to meet a deadline. These systems should be judged mainly based on whether they do what they are intended to do -- and I think the active scavenging system did what it needed to do within the desired time window.
Finally, if I were to acquire a stroker, I would consider two options. First, build it myself over a long period of time and asking for a lot of help. Journey would be the goal, and it would be a bonus if it would actually work. Second, to get a more predictable result in a more predictable timeline, order the engine from the builder who has built the most strokers -- everyone knows who that is.
I do think that we should be able to compare same brand chassis dyno results across cars. For example, averaging the Dynojet SAE corrected hp over say 2000 rpm range will in my opinion give a result that is roughly comparable across cars. With other cars, it seems that those results correlate pretty well with things like trap speeds. Yes, the tire spin is a problem, but glue and ballast cure that. At higher gears which are more useful for tuning, the Dynojet tire speed limits that are also one constraint. That all said, I don't think it's justified for anyone to just dismiss the chassis dyno results.
To map an engine, of course it's better to put an engine to an engine dyno. The problem is that most people can't afford to do so. Pull the engine, spend a day setting it up on an engine dyno, then day tuning, and then put it back in the car. That's $5k in the best case scenario, which is pure guess since I've never had an engine on an engine dyno. I found one facility here in case it ever gets to that, although I doubt it ever will.
For my limited mapping needs and abilities, I've found the Dynapack dynos to be useful. I would buy one for home but it's a complete non-starter in our little cul-de-sac with zoning that prevents snoring with a window open. The tire slippage factor is eliminated as the dyno bolts on in place of the wheels. With turbos, the version that holds 3500 NM at 2400 rpm appears workable on fourth and fifth gears. Cooling is still a problem. Most dyno facilities seem to have high speed fans for the radiator, but intercoolers don't get cooled. In my current dyno setup, for intercoolers I have two 1600 CFM fans (they fit on the back seats) and a garden hose. I don't think I've ever held the car under full load for 60 seconds, but I think I've done 30 seconds. 30 seconds feels like a lifetime in that setting, by the way.
The stock clutch doesn't really hold, what else is new. I have a Spec 3+ clutch which does not slip and will work ok when shifting but that stutters sometimes when taking off from a parking lot. I wouldn't want to recommend that clutch to anyone, but it does seem to hold under my chosen torque level.
Then there's the transmission question. I have not broken any transmissions. I have a spare 5 speed from a GT waiting in the garage, so maybe the existence of a spare has "jinxed" my attempts to blow up the transmission. After thinking about the transmission a bit, I've come to the following conclusions. To break these five speed transmissions, one needs sticky tires on track, a lot of torque, and overheating. I am limiting the torque to 500 ft-lbs at the torque tube side of the transmission with the boost controller. My tires aren't sticky and the Dynapack is very well controlled not to "jerk" no matter what. High speed, slicks, and bumps on a track will put loads on that transmission that are probable greater than what these motors can produce. Finally, although it seems easy to "cook" the intercoolers on a dyno, I don't think short load session on a chassis dyno really put that much heat in the transmission. My theory of what really kills these transmissions is the case heating up and expanding more than the shafts and gears, slightly pulling the gears apart and concentrating the load. Just a theory.
All in all, despite having a clutch that doesn't slip and despite of not having broken a 5-speed transmission and despite of not having the stock engine grenade on me, I still (perhaps naively) believe that the car is producing the power than Dynojet and Dynapack read... Next spring, I will be happy to join anyone more experienced in an open-night drag strip session in Northeast. I am kind of curious what the actual trap speeds will look like.
I can't agree _at all_ with the claim that forced induction power is less reliable than strokers. If you spend the same amount of money to make the same amount of power, turbo/supercharging gives you the best and not the worst reliability. Increasing displacement gives you the second highest level of reliability. Squeezing more power out of the stock displacement by turning the engine over more is inherently the least reliable way to make the same power with the same dollars, but it also gives you the greatest bragging rights. "Why did I do it that way? Because I could."
At some point of this very long thread, I recall there been a criticism of the active head scavenging system. It's my understanding that this system was built to solve one oiling problem in a brute force but reliable way to meet a deadline. These systems should be judged mainly based on whether they do what they are intended to do -- and I think the active scavenging system did what it needed to do within the desired time window.
Finally, if I were to acquire a stroker, I would consider two options. First, build it myself over a long period of time and asking for a lot of help. Journey would be the goal, and it would be a bonus if it would actually work. Second, to get a more predictable result in a more predictable timeline, order the engine from the builder who has built the most strokers -- everyone knows who that is.
Last edited by ptuomov; 11-26-2012 at 08:50 PM.
11-27-2012, 12:36 AM
#249
Shameful Thread Killer
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It seems to me that the issues so far are outside the crankcase/heads. If the oil pressure seems low, then investigate it. If the water doesn't circulate right, investigate it. These are not issues I would attribute to the build of the engine.
I've also heard the 85/86 block is the preferred mule for big HP, but it's not anything I can rely on.
Stop complaining and get it fixed, no matter how long it's been since the build.
It seems to me that the issues so far are outside the crankcase/heads. If the oil pressure seems low, then investigate it. If the water doesn't circulate right, investigate it. These are not issues I would attribute to the build of the engine.
I've also heard the 85/86 block is the preferred mule for big HP, but it's not anything I can rely on.
Stop complaining and get it fixed, no matter how long it's been since the build.
11-27-2012, 12:36 PM
#250
Developer
I do not know what else I can offer or do for this customer.
The customer reported that he overheated the motor and that may be the cause of the "low" oil pressure alone. I don't know, but it has to be considered. As is our assembly procedure, every bearing was plastigauged under full torque and I know for certainty that they were right when the engine left here.
However, as I said to Byron, because it has over-heated during the break-in period, and also because he claims it has low oil pressure - the bearings should be inspected. Once again, I offered to do that for free. I offered that he could ship it here ad I'd pay one of the freight ways for him.
I offered if the water pump has dropped its impeller (a possibility, as we all know) I would replace it for free with a new one AND would repair the impeller volute in the block for free if needs be.
It starts to look like, if he has free shipping and free service of the bearings, water pump, and block EVEN AFTER 2 YEARS AND 8 MONTHS and he still does not want to send it here, that he has done something to it, knows it, and doesn't want me to see it.
It would have been easier to hide behind our warranty and do a "Sorry Charlie", but I didn't do that. Although almost 3 years since we shipped it, I have offered free freight, parts, and service to that motor to help him.
You can see how well that has gone.
The customer reported that he overheated the motor and that may be the cause of the "low" oil pressure alone. I don't know, but it has to be considered. As is our assembly procedure, every bearing was plastigauged under full torque and I know for certainty that they were right when the engine left here.
However, as I said to Byron, because it has over-heated during the break-in period, and also because he claims it has low oil pressure - the bearings should be inspected. Once again, I offered to do that for free. I offered that he could ship it here ad I'd pay one of the freight ways for him.
I offered if the water pump has dropped its impeller (a possibility, as we all know) I would replace it for free with a new one AND would repair the impeller volute in the block for free if needs be.
It starts to look like, if he has free shipping and free service of the bearings, water pump, and block EVEN AFTER 2 YEARS AND 8 MONTHS and he still does not want to send it here, that he has done something to it, knows it, and doesn't want me to see it.
It would have been easier to hide behind our warranty and do a "Sorry Charlie", but I didn't do that. Although almost 3 years since we shipped it, I have offered free freight, parts, and service to that motor to help him.
You can see how well that has gone.
11-27-2012, 12:40 PM
#251
Developer
Instead of pulling the engine and shipping it and considering that it cost $30K, wouldn't have been simpler for both parties, if Carl would have flown over and had a quick look at the engine?
Shipping all my tools there or shipping the motor here... its cheaper to bring the motor here.
11-27-2012, 01:48 PM
#252
Former Vendor
I do not know what else I can offer or do for this customer.
The customer reported that he overheated the motor and that may be the cause of the "low" oil pressure alone. I don't know, but it has to be considered. As is our assembly procedure, every bearing was plastigauged under full torque and I know for certainty that they were right when the engine left here.
However, as I said to Byron, because it has over-heated during the break-in period, and also because he claims it has low oil pressure - the bearings should be inspected. Once again, I offered to do that for free. I offered that he could ship it here ad I'd pay one of the freight ways for him.
I offered if the water pump has dropped its impeller (a possibility, as we all know) I would replace it for free with a new one AND would repair the impeller volute in the block for free if needs be.
It starts to look like, if he has free shipping and free service of the bearings, water pump, and block EVEN AFTER 2 YEARS AND 8 MONTHS and he still does not want to send it here, that he has done something to it, knows it, and doesn't want me to see it.
It would have been easier to hide behind our warranty and do a "Sorry Charlie", but I didn't do that. Although almost 3 years since we shipped it, I have offered free freight, parts, and service to that motor to help him.
You can see how well that has gone.
The customer reported that he overheated the motor and that may be the cause of the "low" oil pressure alone. I don't know, but it has to be considered. As is our assembly procedure, every bearing was plastigauged under full torque and I know for certainty that they were right when the engine left here.
However, as I said to Byron, because it has over-heated during the break-in period, and also because he claims it has low oil pressure - the bearings should be inspected. Once again, I offered to do that for free. I offered that he could ship it here ad I'd pay one of the freight ways for him.
I offered if the water pump has dropped its impeller (a possibility, as we all know) I would replace it for free with a new one AND would repair the impeller volute in the block for free if needs be.
It starts to look like, if he has free shipping and free service of the bearings, water pump, and block EVEN AFTER 2 YEARS AND 8 MONTHS and he still does not want to send it here, that he has done something to it, knows it, and doesn't want me to see it.
It would have been easier to hide behind our warranty and do a "Sorry Charlie", but I didn't do that. Although almost 3 years since we shipped it, I have offered free freight, parts, and service to that motor to help him.
You can see how well that has gone.
Pretty much anyone is going to take more than 6 months to install their own engine, especially if the engine isn't a complete engine. The "6 month" warranty that you keep talking about (and I've read all of the communication between you and Byron) certainly expired...but only on the "technical" point that the engine sat, for that long. I'd think that a warranty period should cover the engine, from the time it first runs....
In your communications, you keep talking about the "warranty period" expiring and that your "current warranty" is only whatever you choose to warranty. I'm guessing that Byron isn't really excited about sending the engine back to you with such an "open ended" potential bill.
Heh, if the water pump failed and the engine overheated....it's your water pump and therefore your problem. (I've never seen a 928 engine get hot enough to damage the rod bearing, BTW....and I don't really think this is an issue, here).
You either want to warranty the engine or you don't.
Make it cut and dry.
11-27-2012, 02:07 PM
#253
Nordschleife Master
I've seen these cars overheat pretty bad and have yet to see one have an oil pressure issue after.
Additionally, you state that you plastigauged the bearings. This is a bad way to go about this. Those that build motors for a living charging what you do, do not use plastigauge. Instead they use the proper tools to measure everything down to stupid small values. They then use these values and some simple math to determine clearances.
Additionally, you state that you plastigauged the bearings. This is a bad way to go about this. Those that build motors for a living charging what you do, do not use plastigauge. Instead they use the proper tools to measure everything down to stupid small values. They then use these values and some simple math to determine clearances.
11-27-2012, 02:20 PM
#254
Former Vendor
I actually considered doing just that. But after thinking through the tools I would need to remove his crank scraper and windage tray, inspect his rod bearings, re-torque his rods (ARP fasteners with torque-and-angle method of installation) and other items - I realized I'd need access to my tools to be prepared for whatever I might find.
Shipping all my tools there or shipping the motor here... its cheaper to bring the motor here.
Shipping all my tools there or shipping the motor here... its cheaper to bring the motor here.
It is a big project to get an engine into a 928, get it all hooked up, and get it running. To remove the engine and send it out to you is a bunch of work. Besides that, if you couldn't run the engine the first time....how/why are you doing to run it the second time?
The engine is in the car. That is where it is having the problems. It runs (well, after the water pump is repaired, it should run). It seems much easier, for both you and the customer to ship the entire vehicle and see the problem first hand.....actually, it seems absurd to not look at it in the car.
Carl: You and I have our own issues, but let me try and help you, a bit. In this world of mechanical things, everyone has little "problems", with customers, products, and things we build. It comes with what we do. We really are not doing science....we're building special things for special applications. It's actually more "art" than "science".
Your reputation for taking care of these issues (right or wrong) is very poor. Look at all the other vendors here....are they fighting with their customers, on the open internet? You remotely think that this kind of stuff is good for your business? You did more "self-harm" regarding those front control arms than anyone could ever intentionally inflict upon you! I couldn't do that much harm, if I sat up every night trying to figure out how to damage your business.
And now this.....
You need to solve these problems, long before they get to this point.
If something doesn't work, or if the customer isn't happy....it's up to you to solve that problem, before it degrades to this.
11-27-2012, 02:28 PM
#255
Former Vendor
I've seen these cars overheat pretty bad and have yet to see one have an oil pressure issue after.
Additionally, you state that you plastigauged the bearings. This is a bad way to go about this. Those that build motors for a living charging what you do, do not use plastigauge. Instead they use the proper tools to measure everything down to stupid small values. They then use these values and some simple math to determine clearances.
Additionally, you state that you plastigauged the bearings. This is a bad way to go about this. Those that build motors for a living charging what you do, do not use plastigauge. Instead they use the proper tools to measure everything down to stupid small values. They then use these values and some simple math to determine clearances.
Remember, it's not our job to teach people how to build engines.
Let him learn to build things, on his own.
Pretty obviously, one doesn't wake up one morning, after sleeping at a Holiday Inn Express, and know how to design and build engines, much less a 928 engine!