early dyno results
#256
Glad it did.
#257
I don't know if this has any relevance or not, but from the factory 928 GT Cup spec documentation:
"LUBRICATION - OIL PAN
We have, by means of aluminum sheets, altered the oil pan. The reason for this is to smooth down the oil return flow and glide (?) it faster to the suction side. See 8mm film VHS. The oil capacity is unchanged and is like in the standard motor.
RESTRICT OIL
By using pressure reduction valves in the oil-channels of the cylinder heads have we accomplished that the oil pressure to the heads does not exceed max. 3.0 bar. Therefore the oil circulation is slowed down and more oil in conjunction with oil pan modification, is available to the oil pump. The reduction valves were used from the 944-2.
DRYSUMP - SYSTEM
A drysump system is very complicated and here in Germany prohibitively expensive. Our way of doing it is almost as good and much more affordable."
Since I don't speak German, I hope the images below are applicable. Also, don't miss the PDF attachment below the pics.
"LUBRICATION - OIL PAN
We have, by means of aluminum sheets, altered the oil pan. The reason for this is to smooth down the oil return flow and glide (?) it faster to the suction side. See 8mm film VHS. The oil capacity is unchanged and is like in the standard motor.
RESTRICT OIL
By using pressure reduction valves in the oil-channels of the cylinder heads have we accomplished that the oil pressure to the heads does not exceed max. 3.0 bar. Therefore the oil circulation is slowed down and more oil in conjunction with oil pan modification, is available to the oil pump. The reduction valves were used from the 944-2.
DRYSUMP - SYSTEM
A drysump system is very complicated and here in Germany prohibitively expensive. Our way of doing it is almost as good and much more affordable."
Since I don't speak German, I hope the images below are applicable. Also, don't miss the PDF attachment below the pics.
#258
#259
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,856
Likes: 335
From: Chandler, AZ, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
Greg let's be accurate here. If the C-130 is traveling at near max speed that 82 928 would be traveling at near 350mph / 560kph. Much faster than you state. However, if there was enough altitude for the inertia to be overcome by just gravity and aerodynamics I would think the max speed just before the end of its run would be close to 130mph / 210kph. Of course the stopping distance would be only the length of the car at impact.
#260
Which is about 5.7% wheel slip, vs actual gearing.....
#262
He who goes by one letter of the alphabet
#263
Understood, and nothing I have seen so far keeps the oil from traveling out the breathers. The oil vapor and droplets in the high-speed stream just fly around the various diverters. The copper mesh people have added probably just makes it worse once it gets saturated as there is no way for the oil to go back wards against flow as long as you are on the throttle.
The issue is the duration this motor spends at this high RPM.. I don't think all our conventional approaches will really work in this case. Thats a lot of oil being pumped around that you have to "control"
Great thread!!.
#264
I don't know if this has any relevance or not, but from the factory 928 GT Cup spec documentation:
"LUBRICATION - OIL PAN
We have, by means of aluminum sheets, altered the oil pan. The reason for this is to smooth down the oil return flow and glide (?) it faster to the suction side. See 8mm film VHS. The oil capacity is unchanged and is like in the standard motor.
RESTRICT OIL
By using pressure reduction valves in the oil-channels of the cylinder heads have we accomplished that the oil pressure to the heads does not exceed max. 3.0 bar. Therefore the oil circulation is slowed down and more oil in conjunction with oil pan modification, is available to the oil pump. The reduction valves were used from the 944-2.
DRYSUMP - SYSTEM
A drysump system is very complicated and here in Germany prohibitively expensive. Our way of doing it is almost as good and much more affordable."
Since I don't speak German, I hope the images below are applicable. Also, don't miss the PDF attachment below the pics.
"LUBRICATION - OIL PAN
We have, by means of aluminum sheets, altered the oil pan. The reason for this is to smooth down the oil return flow and glide (?) it faster to the suction side. See 8mm film VHS. The oil capacity is unchanged and is like in the standard motor.
RESTRICT OIL
By using pressure reduction valves in the oil-channels of the cylinder heads have we accomplished that the oil pressure to the heads does not exceed max. 3.0 bar. Therefore the oil circulation is slowed down and more oil in conjunction with oil pan modification, is available to the oil pump. The reduction valves were used from the 944-2.
DRYSUMP - SYSTEM
A drysump system is very complicated and here in Germany prohibitively expensive. Our way of doing it is almost as good and much more affordable."
Since I don't speak German, I hope the images below are applicable. Also, don't miss the PDF attachment below the pics.
#266
I have no idea. This is all gleaned from information Kim John Crumb was able to obtain through correspondence with Porsche concerning how "they" prepped the car for the 928 GT Cup series. Here is the letter he received back from Porsche along with some other specs.
#267
OT - but I'd bet that he did 197km/h, and that the cars actually done 50k km's (or 31k miles) and the cluster was never swapped to mph in federalization.
#268
I first learned of "944 disease" from Mr Crumb I think he blew up his GT twice and the project 928 1985 Euro blew up on the first track day for the new owner after he sold it. That was a long time ago.......
#269
Response in red
Greg,
Thank you for sharing the rest of that info.
With regards to the 1.5" pipe out of the crank port, I put it on the passenger side pushing down into the block. This required a slight pinching of the pipe to slide in. I cut it at a 45 deg angle to help knock the oil off first.
I then put the pipe at a 90 deg angle and ran it down the back of the block and put the filler/canister with the scrubbers in it there.
As well I have tried a number of different materials for insertion to help drop the oil. Copper kitchen scrubbers worked the best.
Now this is on a strung 4.7L. You have much larger bores which of course is going to lead to a much higher volume of air having to move.
So that pipe may not be enough. However this car and my car have been run from roughly 80/100kmph up to 240kmph with zero oil injection present. Is this a 2 valve or a 4 valve 4.7?
This is a 2 Valve car. Though I will be doing the same thing shortly to my street car. On my street 32V 5.0L I have a 1" ID breather hose, and my dipstick has never popped out. It is NA
I would be very interested in how much oil was ejected from that hose during the run made. Lots of oil. Solid squirts from -10 hose. Probably 1/2 of a quart, from the head breathers. More from the crankcase.
I would be going from that -10 (5/8") up to a minimum of a -16 (1"). But as stated, I used a 1.5" ID pipe on that breather system. With the displacement of this motor, and that it is new with slightly more blowby (guesstimate) I would be considering 2x 1.5" pipes, or 2x 1" pipes coming out of that area. The slower the air speed, the faster the oil falls. I also cap off all my cam cover port, and have no leaking from them.
The other thing I would be interested in hearing is why you believe the 944S2 valve would not provide enough oil at idle. That head and cams are pretty much exaclt the same as the 928S4 head and I have not heard any issues with excessive cam wear. 944S2 engines are pretty low on bottom end torque and thus need to be "spun" much more. They put a lower ring and pinion into these cars, so that the engines could get up into the higher rpm ranges quicker. I'm not sure I've ever seen a 944S2 with an automatic. Note that the 968 vehicles did not use this restrictor. Scares me, on a street car.
With the document that shows the 944 valve posted just shortly before this, it indicates that it is a pressure limiting valve, also referred to as a pressure reducing valve. In operation is should allow full flow to the heads at lower RPMS, then it prevents the pressure to the heads from exceeding 3 bar. This should technically help to reduce the problem for sure. The other option would be to modify the heads for a different style of valve known as a priority valve. This valve would allow up to a specific GPM or LPM of oil to pass, and then shut off. It is commonly used to control the speed on a specific hyd rotation motor. This may be able to be worked out to use a stock hyd part. Or it may require a custom part to be machined.
Do you have any other ideas and thoughts as to why to oil is not exiting the heads? With both sides filling up, I think we can safely rule out the problem being caused by the whipping in the crank. The only thing left is an excessive flow of crankcase gasses. I think the fact that all of the head breathers "eject" oil at the same time, is significant. It would seen that the two sides of the block, with two different drain designs, would not fill at the exact same rate. To me, this points towards crankcase pressure and a giant "burp". My idea of the sequence of events is: The crankcase breather gets plugged with oil, the heads overwhelm the drains and start filling, the crankcase pressure rises, further blocking the oil from returning, the sump runs low on oil, and then there is a giant burp, when the crankcase pressure gets high enough.
I concur with your prognosis on the air burp. And while limiting the possible total flow to the heads might be a wise idea. I still believe that opening the breathing system from the main part of the crankcase up and capping off the cam cover ports might help to correct the problem.
The other thing which I will be doing and trying on my motor is to shim the stock pressure relief cartridge to a much higher pressure, and then run an externally adjustable pressure relief cartridge. I will at that time be reducing the maximum possible pressure to 80-85PSI. Because my engine is drysump, I can then tag this dumped oil right back into the pickup. On a street car this could be tagged into the drain plug to help it.
Thank you for sharing the rest of that info.
With regards to the 1.5" pipe out of the crank port, I put it on the passenger side pushing down into the block. This required a slight pinching of the pipe to slide in. I cut it at a 45 deg angle to help knock the oil off first.
I then put the pipe at a 90 deg angle and ran it down the back of the block and put the filler/canister with the scrubbers in it there.
As well I have tried a number of different materials for insertion to help drop the oil. Copper kitchen scrubbers worked the best.
Now this is on a strung 4.7L. You have much larger bores which of course is going to lead to a much higher volume of air having to move.
So that pipe may not be enough. However this car and my car have been run from roughly 80/100kmph up to 240kmph with zero oil injection present. Is this a 2 valve or a 4 valve 4.7?
This is a 2 Valve car. Though I will be doing the same thing shortly to my street car. On my street 32V 5.0L I have a 1" ID breather hose, and my dipstick has never popped out. It is NA
I would be very interested in how much oil was ejected from that hose during the run made. Lots of oil. Solid squirts from -10 hose. Probably 1/2 of a quart, from the head breathers. More from the crankcase.
I would be going from that -10 (5/8") up to a minimum of a -16 (1"). But as stated, I used a 1.5" ID pipe on that breather system. With the displacement of this motor, and that it is new with slightly more blowby (guesstimate) I would be considering 2x 1.5" pipes, or 2x 1" pipes coming out of that area. The slower the air speed, the faster the oil falls. I also cap off all my cam cover port, and have no leaking from them.
The other thing I would be interested in hearing is why you believe the 944S2 valve would not provide enough oil at idle. That head and cams are pretty much exaclt the same as the 928S4 head and I have not heard any issues with excessive cam wear. 944S2 engines are pretty low on bottom end torque and thus need to be "spun" much more. They put a lower ring and pinion into these cars, so that the engines could get up into the higher rpm ranges quicker. I'm not sure I've ever seen a 944S2 with an automatic. Note that the 968 vehicles did not use this restrictor. Scares me, on a street car.
With the document that shows the 944 valve posted just shortly before this, it indicates that it is a pressure limiting valve, also referred to as a pressure reducing valve. In operation is should allow full flow to the heads at lower RPMS, then it prevents the pressure to the heads from exceeding 3 bar. This should technically help to reduce the problem for sure. The other option would be to modify the heads for a different style of valve known as a priority valve. This valve would allow up to a specific GPM or LPM of oil to pass, and then shut off. It is commonly used to control the speed on a specific hyd rotation motor. This may be able to be worked out to use a stock hyd part. Or it may require a custom part to be machined.
Do you have any other ideas and thoughts as to why to oil is not exiting the heads? With both sides filling up, I think we can safely rule out the problem being caused by the whipping in the crank. The only thing left is an excessive flow of crankcase gasses. I think the fact that all of the head breathers "eject" oil at the same time, is significant. It would seen that the two sides of the block, with two different drain designs, would not fill at the exact same rate. To me, this points towards crankcase pressure and a giant "burp". My idea of the sequence of events is: The crankcase breather gets plugged with oil, the heads overwhelm the drains and start filling, the crankcase pressure rises, further blocking the oil from returning, the sump runs low on oil, and then there is a giant burp, when the crankcase pressure gets high enough.
I concur with your prognosis on the air burp. And while limiting the possible total flow to the heads might be a wise idea. I still believe that opening the breathing system from the main part of the crankcase up and capping off the cam cover ports might help to correct the problem.
The other thing which I will be doing and trying on my motor is to shim the stock pressure relief cartridge to a much higher pressure, and then run an externally adjustable pressure relief cartridge. I will at that time be reducing the maximum possible pressure to 80-85PSI. Because my engine is drysump, I can then tag this dumped oil right back into the pickup. On a street car this could be tagged into the drain plug to help it.
#270
I keep hearing you, about running the 944 pressure reduction valves, in the heads. I've used these before, in some engines.
You have any idea why they would not have run these in the GTS engines, from the factory, since they had to have them available and were obviously fighting with the oil control issues? Pretty obviously, they gave up on venting the crankcase through the oil filler neck and decided to vent the crankcase through the valve covers, in the '94/'95 models. They have to had run these engines on dynos and had to know that the heads filled up with oil...so you'd think they would have done this, if at all possible.
Why would they run them in the 944S2 and then go away from them in the 968 engines? Seems pretty much like the same stuff....
My lifters are all DLC coated, and my cam profiles are very modern and thus require very light spring pressures, so I might be able to cut down on the oil supply and perhaps not have any issues...I just don't like that "perhaps" word, on my customer's engines.
You have any idea why they would not have run these in the GTS engines, from the factory, since they had to have them available and were obviously fighting with the oil control issues? Pretty obviously, they gave up on venting the crankcase through the oil filler neck and decided to vent the crankcase through the valve covers, in the '94/'95 models. They have to had run these engines on dynos and had to know that the heads filled up with oil...so you'd think they would have done this, if at all possible.
Why would they run them in the 944S2 and then go away from them in the 968 engines? Seems pretty much like the same stuff....
My lifters are all DLC coated, and my cam profiles are very modern and thus require very light spring pressures, so I might be able to cut down on the oil supply and perhaps not have any issues...I just don't like that "perhaps" word, on my customer's engines.