Project REAR WW LINER - GTS & Others
08-17-2011, 09:55 AM
#212
Rennlist Member
Herman,
We will all be indebted to you (and of course Jerry) if this works out so Jerry can determine the "perfect" fit for the GTS's as well as the S4/GT's he's working on.
Gary-
We will all be indebted to you (and of course Jerry) if this works out so Jerry can determine the "perfect" fit for the GTS's as well as the S4/GT's he's working on.
Gary-
08-17-2011, 04:30 PM
#213
Rennlist Member
we'll have admired Jerry's efforts in this and we're happy to give him our support to complete the project.
My efforts are only a morsel in comparison to what you have done for the 928 community we're happy to contribute.
Best Herman
08-17-2011, 05:44 PM
#214
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Herman, I have a hearing at 1:30 Friday the 9th of Sept, but I doubt that it takes more than a couple of hours. I have blocked the rest of the afternoon, so we should be able to get the GTS jacked up and start some cutting and fitting of material for mounting mock-ups for the necessary mountng points then.
I think I already have the left inner half fitting just about right, so we wont need to do much if anything in terms of location, just do the mounting points. I still need to trim out one of the last prototypes for the right side and get it mounted the same, but I have to put something in the form to form around the fuel line or vent line that I think is in the way. For our mounting purposes I can just cut that part out of the liner so it will fit, if needed.
I suspect that the left mounting point and the right are mirror immages of each other, but will not be surprised to find that there is some difference. We will see.
Maybe by then I will even have the form for the outer halves done and we can blow some of those and maybe even see how they are going to fit. I'll work on that idea between now and then to hope that I will get the GTS in person to see if I have the form right for those.
Jerry Feather
I think I already have the left inner half fitting just about right, so we wont need to do much if anything in terms of location, just do the mounting points. I still need to trim out one of the last prototypes for the right side and get it mounted the same, but I have to put something in the form to form around the fuel line or vent line that I think is in the way. For our mounting purposes I can just cut that part out of the liner so it will fit, if needed.
I suspect that the left mounting point and the right are mirror immages of each other, but will not be surprised to find that there is some difference. We will see.
Maybe by then I will even have the form for the outer halves done and we can blow some of those and maybe even see how they are going to fit. I'll work on that idea between now and then to hope that I will get the GTS in person to see if I have the form right for those.
Jerry Feather
08-17-2011, 07:47 PM
#215
Nordschleife Master
08-20-2011, 07:14 PM
#216
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I posted a progress report about the liners, but by mistake I put it in the Flush Console project thread. In order to stay up to date with the liner project you will need to look at the other thread. I'll try to get on the right track tomorrow with whatever I get done then. Thanks for your interest.
Jerry Feather
Jerry Feather
08-21-2011, 03:27 PM
#217
Rennlist Member
Info from center console page
Jerry, et al.
I copied the info from that posting to here:
Gary--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today I think I made some significant progress. Probably enough to realize that there is going to be some interesting difficulty in trying to mount these liners in all the cars. Interesting because just about every version of the car is likely to have to have different mounting brackets developed; and that may also be for each side.
One of the things I found today is that I think that the right side of the inner car is not quite semitrical to the left. What I was working on today was the fitting of the right liner inner half to the S4 that I am working with. I found that the liner would not fit as far foreward as the left one does. There is a reverse curved panel in the foreward inside "corner" of the well that I have formed around, but it seems to be a little too tight on the right side as compared to the left. What I am going to have to do is form a flat spot on the right inner half to allow for the difference.
Another thing I think I found is the reason that the right top rear corner of the GTS factory liner has the squarish indent in it is to clear the fitting on the bottom rear of the plastic cannister thingy that is mounted in the very top of the right wheel well. I think it is a charcoal cannister for the fuel vent system, but what do I know. Anyway, my liner clears it except for the need to grind a little notch in the liner flange to clear the fitting.
I also developed a form piece that will form a lump or bump in the liner inner half that will clear the fuel line that goes up the rear of the inner part of the right wheel well. I'll form a next version of the inner halves maybe tomorrow and see how it works.
I finalized the design of the left two mounting connectors and will start working on making them in aluminum. I plan on using .075 sheet in 6061 T6, but I have to develop some method of bending them to shape; and I don't have a stout enough press brake to do it with. I'll have to look into that part of it. I used to have a friend here with a brake I could use but he sold it and moved away.
I find that the right front of the wheel well in the S4 has only three mounting points in the car. I think I can convert one of them into two points and that I can use the other two to mount a bracket or connector to that will have two or three points of connection the the liner flange.
For the rear of the right side there are simply no mounting points. However, there is a little stiffener brace at the bottom like on the left side that I can add two points to, the same as on the left. Then I hope to figure out how to connect to one or more of the fuel line mounting points for some more points in the rear.
With all this different bracketry that is apparently going to be incolved, I am beginning to wonder just how difficult these liner are going to be to mount in the field. I guess I have to start working on some extensive instructions.
Jerry Feather
I copied the info from that posting to here:
Gary--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today I think I made some significant progress. Probably enough to realize that there is going to be some interesting difficulty in trying to mount these liners in all the cars. Interesting because just about every version of the car is likely to have to have different mounting brackets developed; and that may also be for each side.
One of the things I found today is that I think that the right side of the inner car is not quite semitrical to the left. What I was working on today was the fitting of the right liner inner half to the S4 that I am working with. I found that the liner would not fit as far foreward as the left one does. There is a reverse curved panel in the foreward inside "corner" of the well that I have formed around, but it seems to be a little too tight on the right side as compared to the left. What I am going to have to do is form a flat spot on the right inner half to allow for the difference.
Another thing I think I found is the reason that the right top rear corner of the GTS factory liner has the squarish indent in it is to clear the fitting on the bottom rear of the plastic cannister thingy that is mounted in the very top of the right wheel well. I think it is a charcoal cannister for the fuel vent system, but what do I know. Anyway, my liner clears it except for the need to grind a little notch in the liner flange to clear the fitting.
I also developed a form piece that will form a lump or bump in the liner inner half that will clear the fuel line that goes up the rear of the inner part of the right wheel well. I'll form a next version of the inner halves maybe tomorrow and see how it works.
I finalized the design of the left two mounting connectors and will start working on making them in aluminum. I plan on using .075 sheet in 6061 T6, but I have to develop some method of bending them to shape; and I don't have a stout enough press brake to do it with. I'll have to look into that part of it. I used to have a friend here with a brake I could use but he sold it and moved away.
I find that the right front of the wheel well in the S4 has only three mounting points in the car. I think I can convert one of them into two points and that I can use the other two to mount a bracket or connector to that will have two or three points of connection the the liner flange.
For the rear of the right side there are simply no mounting points. However, there is a little stiffener brace at the bottom like on the left side that I can add two points to, the same as on the left. Then I hope to figure out how to connect to one or more of the fuel line mounting points for some more points in the rear.
With all this different bracketry that is apparently going to be incolved, I am beginning to wonder just how difficult these liner are going to be to mount in the field. I guess I have to start working on some extensive instructions.
Jerry Feather
08-21-2011, 04:29 PM
#218
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Gary. I can use all the help I can get.
I just came in for a break and maybe a bite of lunch. I have been doing a lot of measuring of the wheel wells today so I can get the correct placement of the outer liner half with the wheel arch in to correct location. I am going to try to have the finish wheel opening edge of the liner a little bit away fron the wheel edge opening flange, or rolled hem on the later cars, so as to reduce the tendency of the liners to sag at any point and have the "slip" showing.
I also just blew another version of the inner halves with the two plugs I put in the form that I mentioned above. I'll go back out in a while and unload it and take some pictures to show what I am talking about. Then I'm going to have to trim both inner liners out of the raw blow and see if I have the adjusted spots right.
I am also a little perplexed because the right inner half liner is wanting to finish out about a half inch shorter than the one on the left. I need to figure out what that is all about. I hope it is not something to do with the car. Except for the tight spot I found yesterday, the wheel wells seem to be true to each other.
More later.
Jerry Feather
I just came in for a break and maybe a bite of lunch. I have been doing a lot of measuring of the wheel wells today so I can get the correct placement of the outer liner half with the wheel arch in to correct location. I am going to try to have the finish wheel opening edge of the liner a little bit away fron the wheel edge opening flange, or rolled hem on the later cars, so as to reduce the tendency of the liners to sag at any point and have the "slip" showing.
I also just blew another version of the inner halves with the two plugs I put in the form that I mentioned above. I'll go back out in a while and unload it and take some pictures to show what I am talking about. Then I'm going to have to trim both inner liners out of the raw blow and see if I have the adjusted spots right.
I am also a little perplexed because the right inner half liner is wanting to finish out about a half inch shorter than the one on the left. I need to figure out what that is all about. I hope it is not something to do with the car. Except for the tight spot I found yesterday, the wheel wells seem to be true to each other.
More later.
Jerry Feather
08-21-2011, 06:52 PM
#219
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well, I got one of the four wheel arch forms nearly finished and have only three more to go. I'll do the other one for the S4 and then put the outer half form together and blow a pair to see how they are goig to come out. It is kind of a chalenge to design something in the negative that will be used to form something positive. Sometimes I just have to shake my head and start all over.
Here are some pictures of the last blow of the inner halves. The first one shows the lump/bump I put in the form to form around the fuel line in the right side. The second shows the little flat spot I put in so the corner is not so tight and so the liner will go all the way foreward like the left side does.
The third and fourth pictures show the inner halves more completely. I think if the lump and flat spot fit then I have the inner half form in its final form. I may later use some bondo or something to smooth it up a bit, but until then I think this is what we have.
Jerry Feather
Here are some pictures of the last blow of the inner halves. The first one shows the lump/bump I put in the form to form around the fuel line in the right side. The second shows the little flat spot I put in so the corner is not so tight and so the liner will go all the way foreward like the left side does.
The third and fourth pictures show the inner halves more completely. I think if the lump and flat spot fit then I have the inner half form in its final form. I may later use some bondo or something to smooth it up a bit, but until then I think this is what we have.
Jerry Feather
08-21-2011, 08:41 PM
#221
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
My new liners are not to be charatcterized as "your new insulated liners." These are simply my version of the liners that will take the place of the original liners sans any insulating foam or other material for noise reduction. At least for the initial development.
Jerry Feather
08-22-2011, 10:43 AM
#223
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
08-22-2011, 10:09 PM
#224
Rennlist Member
I've got to tell you that I'm really looking forward to this product. I will be using them with the Louie Ott rear flares, which are even wider than the GTS rear. With your design, it looks like it would be fairly easy to create a spacer to fit inbetween the halves to allow the outer half to reach the wheel opening.
The contour of the wheel opening isn't quite the same, but I think it will be a better starting point than doing everything from scratch.
Keep up the good work!
The contour of the wheel opening isn't quite the same, but I think it will be a better starting point than doing everything from scratch.
Keep up the good work!
08-23-2011, 10:29 AM
#225
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Adam, that is an interesting looking flare. I don't think I have seen it before. What you need to do is review this thread particularly the various descriptions of what I am making and how the inner and outer halves will work together.
One thing that you will find that is contrary to your theory about adapting my project to yours is that the liner halves will not connect by having the outer half facing the inner half. The outer will be lapped with the inner with the outer inside the inner. Therefore the inner halves are being made slightly smaller to allow for the overlap and for a tiny flange on the outer edge and with a seal inbetween them.
However, what you will need to do is measure the distance of the top edge of the wheel opening on your flares inward to the face of the frams component. That is the surface with the zig-zag indent in it.
Then you need to make a trace pattern of the wheel opening itself on heavy paper so we can see just how different your opening is from the GTS.
I think it will also be helpful to know where the top of your wheel opening is in respect to either the original S4 or to the GTS. For that measurement you need to use a small framing square and place it on the face of the frame member and then up against the top of the wheel arch. Then measure the distance from the bottom of the frame component flange to the top of the square, (or read it off the square). The top of my inner half of the liner is 10.25 inches from the bottom of the frame. That makes the top of the liner about 5.5 inches above the top of the S4 wheel arch and about 4 inches with the GTS.
With that information, if the drawing of the wheel opening can be registered to the line between the body and the original bumper cover in the rear and possibly the front at the top of the original rocker trim, and if the wheel arch is close enough in shape to the GTS, I may be able to move components in the form around and form liner outer halves that will be a lot closer that what you are thinking about.
Jerry Feather
One thing that you will find that is contrary to your theory about adapting my project to yours is that the liner halves will not connect by having the outer half facing the inner half. The outer will be lapped with the inner with the outer inside the inner. Therefore the inner halves are being made slightly smaller to allow for the overlap and for a tiny flange on the outer edge and with a seal inbetween them.
However, what you will need to do is measure the distance of the top edge of the wheel opening on your flares inward to the face of the frams component. That is the surface with the zig-zag indent in it.
Then you need to make a trace pattern of the wheel opening itself on heavy paper so we can see just how different your opening is from the GTS.
I think it will also be helpful to know where the top of your wheel opening is in respect to either the original S4 or to the GTS. For that measurement you need to use a small framing square and place it on the face of the frame member and then up against the top of the wheel arch. Then measure the distance from the bottom of the frame component flange to the top of the square, (or read it off the square). The top of my inner half of the liner is 10.25 inches from the bottom of the frame. That makes the top of the liner about 5.5 inches above the top of the S4 wheel arch and about 4 inches with the GTS.
With that information, if the drawing of the wheel opening can be registered to the line between the body and the original bumper cover in the rear and possibly the front at the top of the original rocker trim, and if the wheel arch is close enough in shape to the GTS, I may be able to move components in the form around and form liner outer halves that will be a lot closer that what you are thinking about.
Jerry Feather