Solid lifter setup for the 32V - how much valve lash?
12-08-2010, 08:06 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
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Ok Mike - I'll take the bait - so the cams aren't really meant to run solids I follow you there - am I doomed to flatten the lobes - or will I just not be maximizing the efficiency that could be had with the solid lifters (like steeper ramps)?
The valves are the original Porsche ones - and they are in good shape.
INA's are indeed being made in China to my knowledge that is where they are currently outsourced - the batch you get is just luck of the draw - some 944 Turbo owners using the 2-valve per cylinder version have had failures and damage to the cam within 3000 miles of having purchased lifters from the dealership. I bought 4 for the DOHC head and pumped up all 4 with a syringe, then soaked them in a ultrasonic oil bath for a few hours - all were different - some were hard, some were soft, one of the hard ones wouldn't return. I'm not impressed for brand new lifters. Perhaps I wasn't filling them with oil properly so it was a bad test? But I did all I could!
What kind of lash do you think I should run with my hydraulic cams and original valves?
The valves are the original Porsche ones - and they are in good shape.
INA's are indeed being made in China to my knowledge that is where they are currently outsourced - the batch you get is just luck of the draw - some 944 Turbo owners using the 2-valve per cylinder version have had failures and damage to the cam within 3000 miles of having purchased lifters from the dealership. I bought 4 for the DOHC head and pumped up all 4 with a syringe, then soaked them in a ultrasonic oil bath for a few hours - all were different - some were hard, some were soft, one of the hard ones wouldn't return. I'm not impressed for brand new lifters. Perhaps I wasn't filling them with oil properly so it was a bad test? But I did all I could!
What kind of lash do you think I should run with my hydraulic cams and original valves?
12-08-2010, 08:31 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
Ok Mike - I'll take the bait - so the cams aren't really meant to run solids I follow you there - am I doomed to flatten the lobes - or will I just not be maximizing the efficiency that could be had with the solid lifters (like steeper ramps)?
The valves are the original Porsche ones - and they are in good shape.
INA's are indeed being made in China to my knowledge that is where they are currently outsourced - the batch you get is just luck of the draw - some 944 Turbo owners using the 2-valve per cylinder version have had failures and damage to the cam within 3000 miles of having purchased lifters from the dealership. I bought 4 for the DOHC head and pumped up all 4 with a syringe, then soaked them in a ultrasonic oil bath for a few hours - all were different - some were hard, some were soft, one of the hard ones wouldn't return. I'm not impressed for brand new lifters. Perhaps I wasn't filling them with oil properly so it was a bad test? But I did all I could!
What kind of lash do you think I should run with my hydraulic cams and original valves?
The valves are the original Porsche ones - and they are in good shape.
INA's are indeed being made in China to my knowledge that is where they are currently outsourced - the batch you get is just luck of the draw - some 944 Turbo owners using the 2-valve per cylinder version have had failures and damage to the cam within 3000 miles of having purchased lifters from the dealership. I bought 4 for the DOHC head and pumped up all 4 with a syringe, then soaked them in a ultrasonic oil bath for a few hours - all were different - some were hard, some were soft, one of the hard ones wouldn't return. I'm not impressed for brand new lifters. Perhaps I wasn't filling them with oil properly so it was a bad test? But I did all I could!
What kind of lash do you think I should run with my hydraulic cams and original valves?
Toofast had some good lash advice. Valve job quality is important too. Running the original Porsche valves is a good thing, you can identify them by the engraved name near the tip. Those are great quality. If you ever see one with an electro etched name, run!
Do verify that the keeper and locks fit over the valve with no slop. If you get any rock, there WILL be problems.
Do you have any failed lifters I could study? I love doing broken valve train part forensics. What kind of failures are seen?
12-09-2010, 03:52 PM
#18
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Look at those who are using the stock lifters at the max capabilities of the engine. Fan, Anderson, me, etc. why would you want to deviate from stock and re -invent the wheel?
stock lifters work, anderson runs them up to 7000rpm regularly, and any engine that doesnt have the oiling addressed shouldnt run the engines over 6500rpm anyway.
stock lifters work, anderson runs them up to 7000rpm regularly, and any engine that doesnt have the oiling addressed shouldnt run the engines over 6500rpm anyway.
12-09-2010, 05:58 PM
#19
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Ah..."My main concern is what to adjust the lash to - especially on the exhaust valves. " my concern would be how will you measure it and then how will you "adjust" it ??? The labor involved in that can be quite high.
12-09-2010, 06:11 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
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Check out the pictures on the first page its not too labor intensive if you happen to have a lathe with a grinding attachment in your garage!
12-09-2010, 08:24 PM
#22
I have nothing but positive thoughts for you. But I also think you should talk to mike Simard about shiny new cams specifically make for your hard-earned solid lifters.
12-09-2010, 08:38 PM
#23
Drifting
I only mentioned it as a reason why people typically run solids. So they can spin the crap out it and utilize a big turbo. His reason is different. Also, he doesn't have a 928 engine (but does have all the same problems anyway...).
12-09-2010, 11:37 PM
#24
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12-10-2010, 12:14 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
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@Mike - Yes PM and I'll see if I can send you some to dissect - I may have already lost track of the good and bad ones though - they all have metal in them. In a way they are all bad because they are full of metal shavings.
@Mark - You make a good point - the biggest problem with this shim method is you have to pull the cams every time to re-shim. I'll be sure to let the 928 forum know how many miles I go before I have to re-shim. Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, and Honda engines all have mechanically lashed lifters built like this with overhead cams and they say to "check" every 15K. Your point about the practicality of it certainly hits home when I think about how ya'll have 4 cams to pull instead of 2, and 2 banks to time to the crankshaft instead of 1. This engine redlines stock at 6800 - mine magically redlines at 7K - so it is a high rever but valve float was never an issue.
@Dan - I definitely plan on checking the lash after having warmed the engine up - but I'll have to set the initial lash cold which is what my original question was - What is a reasonable number to set my cold lash to (especially for the exhaust)....? Also - the exhaust valve cools down awful quick - seems like you'd have to check it with the engine running, which probably wouldn't work... Lot's of manufacturers specify a cold lash measurement too...
@Mark - You make a good point - the biggest problem with this shim method is you have to pull the cams every time to re-shim. I'll be sure to let the 928 forum know how many miles I go before I have to re-shim. Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, and Honda engines all have mechanically lashed lifters built like this with overhead cams and they say to "check" every 15K. Your point about the practicality of it certainly hits home when I think about how ya'll have 4 cams to pull instead of 2, and 2 banks to time to the crankshaft instead of 1. This engine redlines stock at 6800 - mine magically redlines at 7K - so it is a high rever but valve float was never an issue.
@Dan - I definitely plan on checking the lash after having warmed the engine up - but I'll have to set the initial lash cold which is what my original question was - What is a reasonable number to set my cold lash to (especially for the exhaust)....? Also - the exhaust valve cools down awful quick - seems like you'd have to check it with the engine running, which probably wouldn't work... Lot's of manufacturers specify a cold lash measurement too...
12-10-2010, 08:06 PM
#26
Race Director
I'm a cam maker and think it's cool to hear about someone interested in solids but I'm surprised at your reasons. Alot of 928 guys have been using a VW INA lifter which is lighter and cheap too, something like 15 each? China is a real concern and I thought the INAs weren't made there yet, just Germany or South America. Do you have any information on the China link? That would be bad news, we need to find out.
Speaking of China, that might actually affect your lash! If you use original Porsche valves and have high confidence in the valve job trueness, you might be able to run less lash on the idea that it's less likely to sink into the head. Modern replacement valves ARE made in China and DO suck in material and finish. You might want to run a little more lash to allow for settling.
Of course your cam is not well suited to this and it's a horrible idea anyway but interesting at least
The Porsche ramp design is suited for hydraulics and doesn't have what is required for a solid lifter.
Speaking of China, that might actually affect your lash! If you use original Porsche valves and have high confidence in the valve job trueness, you might be able to run less lash on the idea that it's less likely to sink into the head. Modern replacement valves ARE made in China and DO suck in material and finish. You might want to run a little more lash to allow for settling.
Of course your cam is not well suited to this and it's a horrible idea anyway but interesting at least
The Porsche ramp design is suited for hydraulics and doesn't have what is required for a solid lifter.
11-11-2013, 08:37 AM
#27
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You cannot run a hydraulic camshaft with solid lifters. There is a huge difference between cam profiles for hydraulic or solid lifters. Profiles for solid lifters do have long ramps in order to smoothly take up the valve lash. From below graphs you can see the difference between a stock 928S4 hydraulic cam profile and a race solid profile for the same engine.
Ake
Ake
Last edited by Strosek Ultra; 09-22-2014 at 01:11 PM.
11-12-2013, 09:47 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Ok,
I will bite...
VW Motorsport clearly thought the lifters were good enough to spin to 8500rpm in their KR derived 1.8ltr 16v. The same for the ABF 2.0ltr 16v engine, which also had a 8500rpm limit.
Porsche actually installed these very same lifters in one of the 962 engines which raced at Le Mans to test durability and whether they would happily spin above 7000rpm...
So, why would you go to solid lifters?
Even BMW - the last bastion of high revving NA engines with solid lifters ditched them when they introduced the S85/S65, eventhough they revved to 8500rpm....
I will bite...
VW Motorsport clearly thought the lifters were good enough to spin to 8500rpm in their KR derived 1.8ltr 16v. The same for the ABF 2.0ltr 16v engine, which also had a 8500rpm limit.
Porsche actually installed these very same lifters in one of the 962 engines which raced at Le Mans to test durability and whether they would happily spin above 7000rpm...
So, why would you go to solid lifters?
Even BMW - the last bastion of high revving NA engines with solid lifters ditched them when they introduced the S85/S65, eventhough they revved to 8500rpm....
11-12-2013, 10:03 AM
#29
Nordschleife Master
With clean oil, the VW hydraulic lifters will not be the limiting factor, something else will. The problems come when there's a lot of air mixed with oil, that's when hydraulic lifters start losing power.
The lifter pumpup is a myth, and could only happen in theory if the springs lose control of the valvetrain.
11-12-2013, 11:13 AM
#30
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Mike Simard used modified hydraulic lifters working almost like solid lifters.
Solid bucket lifters are lighter. The ones I use come in sizes up to 39mm possible to run high lift aggressive camshafts. Furthermore in order to make room for large valves, the valve inclined angle needs to be changed meaning the lifter bores as well as the valve guide bores have to be machined oversize. Bushing the lifter bores is an option but more work and more complications.
The BMW S85 as well as the Porsche GT3 engines have radiused lifters which is something totally different, however hydraulic. The radiused lifters allow for more radical aggressive cam profiles still being small in diameter.
Ake
Solid bucket lifters are lighter. The ones I use come in sizes up to 39mm possible to run high lift aggressive camshafts. Furthermore in order to make room for large valves, the valve inclined angle needs to be changed meaning the lifter bores as well as the valve guide bores have to be machined oversize. Bushing the lifter bores is an option but more work and more complications.
The BMW S85 as well as the Porsche GT3 engines have radiused lifters which is something totally different, however hydraulic. The radiused lifters allow for more radical aggressive cam profiles still being small in diameter.
Ake
Last edited by Strosek Ultra; 04-28-2014 at 04:17 AM.