THINKING OF ENGINE REBUILD SOON

Reply Subscribe

Thread Tools

Search this Thread

12-05-2010, 09:29 PM

#31

dr bob

Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
Member

Join Date: Oct 2001

Location: Bend, Oregon

Posts: 20,506

Likes: 191

Received 546 Likes on 409 Posts

The supply of good used low-mile engines is goingto dwindle as time passes.

I'm babying my car now in normal driving, staying more than current on fluids and filters, all to minimize the amount of wear on the wear parts and damage due to coolant corrosion. I guess if there was a good used '89 motor available with low miles now, it would be very tempting to grab it, mothball and store it correctly for future duty when/if the one in the car now gets tired. Realistically, I'm putting less than 6k gentle miles a year on the car though. Meter shows a bit under 100k, so maybe 15-20 more years before the meter tops 200k. The car will be well under 250k when my ashes get scattered.

Reply Like

12-05-2010, 10:16 PM

#32

GregBBRD

Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Anaheim

Posts: 15,230

Likes: 394

Received 2,473 Likes on 1,468 Posts

Quote:

Originally Posted by circlex

How can there be talk about engine rebuilds if cam gears are no longer available?

I've got enough to get me through the next year....

__________________
greg brown

714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com

Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!

Reply Like

12-05-2010, 11:44 PM

#33

GregBBRD

Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Anaheim

Posts: 15,230

Likes: 394

Received 2,473 Likes on 1,468 Posts

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Edwards

For a more-or-less stock S4 complete teardown and rebuild, the way I would expect Luan to do it, I get about $7000 in parts alone. And this assumes that all moving parts coming out can go back in. Add a minimum of $7500 to pull, teardown, clean, send out for machine work, reassemble, and reinstall. And then start adding powdercoating, improvements, and slippery slope items. Lightweight lifters? $700. Colin's cams? $1600. A mildly modded 5 liter engine is a $20K exercise, easy peasy.

DESCRIPTION PART NUMBER QTY Unit price Subtotal
SHORT BLOCK
Porsche connecting rod bearings 928 103 143 02 now use 928 103 143 15 8 29.47 235.76
Connecting rod nuts 928 103 172 02 16 2.25 36.00
S4 piston ring sets 928 103 906 28 8 90.00 720.00
MAIN BEARINGS 928 101 901 08 1 303.47 303.47
COMPLETE GASKET SET 928 100 901 04 1 394.84 394.84
M10 LOCK NUTS - GIRDLE TO BLOCK 928 101 741 00 12 3.38 40.56
M12 x 1.5 NUTS for inboard main block studs 928 101 742 00 10 52.10 35.30
DOWEL PIN - straight 6x12 waterpump pin(s)? N 013 199 1 2 0.41 0.82
GTS oil pan baffle 928.107.139.07 1 31.67
Factory OEM water pump 928.106.015.20 1 597.17
waterpump bolts M6x25 - need 8 900.075.341.02 8 1.00 8.00
waterpump bolts M6x20 - need 5 N 010 217 9 5 0.55 2.75
oil pressure sender, sealing ring C48x55, PET #45 900.123.143.70 1 2.79
oil pressure sender, spring, PET #42 928.107.171.01 1 2.52
oil pressure sender, regulator insert, PET #43 928.107.172.02 1 35.23
oil pressure sender, spring, PET #44 928.107.173.01 1 2.52
oil pressure sender, with warning contact PET #46 928.606.203.03 1 102.95
oil pump gear 928.107.107.13 1 60.16 60.16
timing belt 928.105.157.50 1 80.75
Thermostat Housing Inner Seal 84*-95 928.106.163.00 1 $9.19 9.19
oil filter 928.107.201.05 1 8.50
crank gear 928 105 125 12 1 112.95
oil cooler lines rebuilt 210.00
oil pump bolt o-rings, need 3 999.701.006.40 3 0.71 2.13

INTAKE:
brake venturi Y to brake booster 928.110.663.00 1 9.63 9.63
right front cam cover to oil filler 928.107.445.02 1 15.28 15.28
Right Y at air guide elbow to oil filler- GTS 928.107.316.00 1 23.20 23.20
Left Y at air guide elbow to venturi 928.110.224.00 1 14.29 14.29
Left Y ar air guide elbow to Idle Stabilizer valve 928.110.174.09 1 21.75 21.75
ISV to TB housing 928.110.633.00 1 13.04 13.04
3 way hose TB to oil filler and evap vent valve 928.107.603.00 1 29.87 29.87
Left intake side cover to brake venturi 928.110.220.00 1 12.70 12.70
vacuum hose rubber elbows. 928.574.717.02 10 3.06 30.60
airbox rubber donut support things 931.110.191.00 $9.64 19.28
TPS 928 606 157 00 93.11
ISV 928 606 161 01 223.63
MAF refresh 928 606 141 00 175.00
CPS 944 606 115 00 62.00
Knock Sensors 911 606 141 00 2 36.95 73.90
GTS oil neck 928.107.303.09 1 52.30

Tensioner

tensioner boot 83 to 95 928 105 552 08 20.50
tensioner boot clamp 83 to 95 was 999 512 344 02, now 999 512 564 02 2.93
tensioner inner piston o-ring 999 701 650 40 1.92
tensioner arm bushings x2 83-95 928 105 613 04 x2 40.00
tensioner main roller 928 105 512 12 75.00
tensioner adjustment bolt 928 105 075 03 12.49
tensioner idler 928 105 571 04 60.45

HEADS:
Cams- retain stock?
Lindsey racing springs 513.00
Cam gears 928.105.530.01 2 112.00 224.00
cam gear hubs 928.105.459.00 2 19.83 39.66
IWIS Racing cam chains from Roger 2 59.90 59.90
VALVE GUIDES 944.104.327.51 16 6.95 111.20
VALVE SPRINGS 928 105 905 07 32
valve stem seal - need 32 PET #28 928.104.601.07 32 80.00
valve collets- need 64 PET # 33 928.105.221.10 64 0.45 23.68
cam galley plugs -3 for passenger, 2 for driver side 928.105.262.00 5 6.00 4.25
drainback valve spring guide 928.104.119.01 2 10.99 21.98
drainback valve seat 928.104.121.00 2 5.13 10.26
drainback valve compression spring 928.104.129.00 2 0.30 0.60
drainback valve o-ring 999.701.654.40 2 0.58 1.16
drainback valve ball N 025 669 2 2 0.35 0.70
head bolts- M12x 1.5x 199 928 101 231 02 18 9.28 167.04
head bolts- M12 x 1.5 x 149 928 101 233 02 2 14.92 29.84
DOWEL PIN 999.012.034.00 4 5.36 3.76
oil galley freeze plugs 911.101.182.00 8 1.78 14.24
oil galley plug cover N 011 918 1 8 3.28 3.28
CAM TOWER TRIPLE SQUARE BOLTS M8 x35 999.218.023.02 6 $25.20
cam cover bolt sealing rings need 12 900.123.144.30 (or N013 811 2?) 12 $0.18 2.16
cam cover breather fittings- o-rings 900.174.056.40 0.65 2.60
Hose - Left Cam Cover >Right Cam Cover 93-95StrekStrek 928.107.318.00 24.63
chain tensioner repair pads 944.105.949.00 2 209.76
Hall Sensor 944 606 170 01 232.83
engine block to heater valve hose 928.574.567.03 1 8.18

FUEL SYSTEM:
19 LB Injectors Ford 4-pintle 1 250.00
front damper 0 280 161 034 928 110 202 01 154.00
left rear damper 0 280 161 035 930 110 602 01 169.00
fuel pressure regulator 928 110 198 04 169.00
INJECTOR SEAL KITS 928.110.904.00 8 47.68
Fuel line rebuild kit 100.00

IGNITION:
rotors 928 602 213 00 2 16.43 32.86
distributor caps 928 602 211 01 2 24.26 48.52
spark plugs 999 170 156 90 8 2.25 18.00

ACCESSORY BELTS
Air pump belt 12.5 x 925 999 192 306 50 12.00
PS belt 85-95 12.5 x 1000 999 192 286 50 12.00
A/C belts 12.5 x 1080 999 192 335 50 19.00
alternator belt 999-192-266-50 v-belt 12.00

TOTAL 6976.87

And those parts look like they are a list of the cheapest prices around. Getting a reputible shop to put an engine together without their profit margin on the parts is going to be very difficult to find. I've done it a few times and my accountant tells me I'm literally loosing money on those jobs....might as well give the customer a wad of money, when they first walk in, and send them away. That, my accountant claims, would be cheaper, for me.

The math is actually pretty damn easy. It costs me about $1000 a day to unlock the front door on the shop and turn on the lights. If I charge $120.00 an hour and work 8 hours....at the end of the day, I've lost $40.00, if I don't make money on parts!

Interestingly enough, as my shop and reputation has evolved...I find myself doing more diagostic operations on vehicles (that other shops can't seem to repair). When I do diagnostics, there is no profit margin on parts....so I end up loosing money, as I trace down people's nagging problems....and that is only if I actually charge for all the time it takes to diagnosis things...which is very hard to do.

A very recent example:

I just got down tracing down and repairing a miss-fire on an '86 928. It was a complex problem. It had low compression on all the cylinders connected to the left distributor cap. I replaced the coil, cap, coil wire, and rotor...all of which had visual issues. Replaced the spark plugs, when we did the compression test. We replaced the original spark plug wires (with the customer's supplied wires). Still missed. Installed a rebuilt airflow meter and replaced the "dead"
O2 sensor. We them "carbon cleaned" the engine to remove carbon and clean the injectors. Still missed, in the exhaust, but now ran on all 8 cylinders consistantly. The compression was improved. The next step was to pull off as much of the intake as we needed to repair 6 separate intake leaks. Put it all back together, reset the fuel mixture, and...it still missed, through the exhaust. We finally did a complete check on the injection system and found that the TPS was dead...along with the short wire going to it. Pulled the intake back apart and removed the throttle body and replaced the switch and the pigtail to it. Put it all back together, reset the fuel misture (again), and it finally ran great. No possible way to bill for the 4 days of work this took....so, in the end, I ended up billing for only part of the effort. Even so, the bill seemed stupid....$2800 in parts and labor...and he supplied the spark plug wires!

I sat down, this Saturday, and figured this all out. I literally lost $1,400.00 doing this job. When the car came in the shop, I could have handed the guy $1000.00, sent him away, gone out and sat in the sun for 4 days, and I would have been $400.00 ahead! WTF?

Back to the internet parts problem:

I asked around, a few weeks ago at a bunch of shops, and asked how they handle the "internet parts issue" ("I have my own parts and want you to use them, on my repair"). The results of my informal survey were very interesting. Most all shops refuse to use anything they don't supply. I did find two shops that allow people to bring in their own pieces, but they add on the percentage that they would have made on the parts, directly to the bill. Of course, they can't warranty any of the customer's own pieces, so that pretty much defeats any logical reason for the customer to bring the pieces in, in the first place.

I found no one that would take a big box of parts and install them. The general consensus was that the people that get their parts from the internet had better be prepared to install those pieces, themselves.

Most all of the shop owners that I talked to explained it like this:

"When I go out to dinner....I don't bring my own steak and ask them to cook it, serve it to me, and then only charge for the labor of doing that."

Actually, some restuarants will allow you to bring your own bottle of wine...but they charge you a "corkage fee"....even if you open it and serve it yourself. Note that if your bottle of wine sucks...they still bill you the "corkage fee".

So, the shop owners that add their profit margin into the bill when people bring in their own parts perhaps are not all that stupid. They are just adding a "corkage fee".

I know this:

Something has to change, at my shop. Working on old 928's is challenging and interesting. It is not very profitable. I could literally, for the past several years, worked at Home Depot and made more money! And my wife would not have had to been there to run the office...for nothing!

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 01:00 AM

#34

Markmandude

Instructor

Join Date: Aug 2010

Location: Greeley co

Posts: 205

Likes: 0

Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

I was going to ask the same question about the overhead. He may need a new accountant.

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 01:16 AM

#35

Shark_Week

Racer

Join Date: Aug 2009

Location: SD, Ca.

Posts: 419

Likes: 0

Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

not trying to speak for greg, but yes having a business in california is very expensive

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 01:21 AM

#36

GregBBRD

Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Anaheim

Posts: 15,230

Likes: 394

Received 2,473 Likes on 1,468 Posts

Quote:

Originally Posted by circlex

Greg, your post is confusing. On overhead: Are you a one-man-shop? I have never been to your shop, but I can't imagine that you have an overhead of 30K/mo in rent and utilities. Do you have employees that you are adding into the equation that is a component of "keeping the lights on?" Are you the only mechanic at the shop? My God, business in California must be very different than in the Midwest.

I have one mechanic/helper. His costs are not included!

Although I usually do work almost every Saturday and some Sundays, I don't include those days into my "overhead" costs...so there are really only 22 "working" days, in my calculations.

I've never worked anywhere but California, so I don't have anything to compare it to. Rent and "cam fees", insurance (I carry shop owner's liability...almost have to do this in California, where everyone sues almost anyone they can) electricity, water, accounting, and the other operational costs are certainly higher than in the midwest, I'd assume. That's only the obvious. Once you start adding in all the waste disposal costs and all the costs that every single "agency" adds in for "taxation" purposes, the cost of doing business gets really crazy, fast. I have to pay an almost endless array of "agencies" that wander through the door. Hell, I added another small nitogen bottle to "purge" the inside of pipes, when I weld, and it cost me another $75.00, a year, to the fire department!

Try not to forget that California is broke and very few people actually work and support the other people. Over 50% of California works for the govenment, in one way or another. Add in a huge unemploment problem....and there are very few people actually paying for all the rest! Sometimes I think we are more "socialist" than the Soviet Union ever was!

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 01:27 AM

#37

928mac

Drifting

Join Date: Oct 2009

Location: Alberta, Canada

Posts: 2,638

Likes: 0

Received 2 Likes on 1 Post

There is a lot in this list that you don't need to replace.
Even on a complete rebuild, assuming your belts right now are not on there last legs. I'm not going to pick this apart but unless you got 500k on it or spun bearings this is over kill. IMHO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Edwards

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 10:48 AM

#38

blown 87

Rest in Peace
Rennlist Member

Join Date: May 2006

Location: Bird lover in Sharpsburg

Posts: 9,903

Likes: 0

Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts

I agree with you there, your valve springs may be something you want to roll the dice with.

His list is not complete by any means, you have all the coolant hoses, rebuilding the radiator, much more to doing a good job on most than is on Robs list.
How about the hubs for the cam gears? The list just goes on and on.
Rob has been there before, as I have, his list is just a starting point not a max point by any means.

We have one person on the list who says he can build a 928 engine using only porsche parts for 2 grand, he calls his a rebuilt engine, as I do mine, which would you rather have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwmac

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 10:56 AM

#39

blown 87

Rest in Peace
Rennlist Member

Join Date: May 2006

Location: Bird lover in Sharpsburg

Posts: 9,903

Likes: 0

Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregBBRD

I also do a lot of diagnostic work for other shops and a couple of dealerships on cars they cant seem to repair.

For the rest of this, I could not agree more, but I am shocked that it only cost you a grand a day to open your doors.

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 11:35 AM

#40

RED SHARK 1990

Racer

Thread Starter

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: SAN DIEGO

Posts: 454

Likes: 0

Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

ENGINE REBUILD

Everything on that list except cam spring,tensioner pads. New cam gears had been replaced within last year with Ken Porkentensioner kit last year. So far in my stock are a new Porsche intake gasket set,oil pressure spring kit ,oil pump gear,new Porsche oil cooler lines,all power steering hoses replaced last year fact Porsche parts,even a new porsche intank fuel pump extra... I replaced one two years ago with an outside one,all Porsche accessories belts just replaced,power steering pump,starter,alternator last year,all fuel lines,dampers,the year before all Intake refreshed with Rogers Help....sensors,isv,tps..etc

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 12:04 PM

#41

Randy V

Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member

Join Date: Jun 2000

Location: Insane Diego, California

Posts: 40,449

Likes: 35

Received 97 Likes on 65 Posts

Time to replace the whole car.

Why do a half-assed job.

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 12:26 PM

#42

928mac

Drifting

Join Date: Oct 2009

Location: Alberta, Canada

Posts: 2,638

Likes: 0

Received 2 Likes on 1 Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula1

Time to replace the whole car.

Why do a half-assed job.

Why replace good parts that have lots of life left was what I was getting at.
Some of those easy to replace parts that can be done 10 or 20 thou down the road, if cost is a consideration.
If independently wealthy then its not a issue, build a stroker.
Like cam gears. If they are good, I would just keep an eye on them.

I am not suggesting to not do a good job, but I would not replace a fuel pump till its time, or cams, or gears.
Anyway I was not going to get into this. It’s just my opinion.

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 12:42 PM

#43

Landseer

Rennlist Member

Join Date: Sep 2007

Location: Johnson City, TN

Posts: 12,143

Likes: 96

Received 360 Likes on 209 Posts

So much is revealed about where that line is drawn and the cleanliness of the shop in which the work is to be performed.

Would somebody put 150Kmi cams on new lifters, for instance?
Would somebody re-use lifters?
On and on.

Moot points for me, though. Can't afford a rebuild. Gotta smile and run 'em as they are.

To those who can upgrade and improve, do it and enjoy!

Last edited by Landseer; 04-12-2011 at 06:36 AM. Reason: spelling

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 12:47 PM

#44

RED SHARK 1990

Racer

Thread Starter

Join Date: Dec 2006

Location: SAN DIEGO

Posts: 454

Likes: 0

Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

REPLACING THE WHOLE CAR

I think that is a much sarcasm on your end ,if you see the car at sharktoberfest you would have been surprised by the condition. Interior is by Paul and ROBB, aswell as fact leather Porsche pieces. Interior restored close to 8grand or more. I am looking on the forum for advices with many parts replaced and wanted the car to last. Replacing the whole car then you simply buy a new car,but not a brand new 928...

Reply Like

12-06-2010, 12:50 PM

#45

Iwanna928

Rennlist Member

Join Date: May 2009

Location: Woodstock Ga.

Posts: 1,482

Likes: 0

Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

If someone found a 85/86 shortblock and wanted to refresh it what exactly would they do? Re ring the piston's, check the bearing's? I thought I read that the bearing's available now are inferior to the stock one's in the original motor.

In doing a hybrid, off topic, wouldn't it save cost's to do a euro 4.7L and save on machine cost's of the 5.0L block in regards to valve relief and give up .3L?

Mark K wrote about cost's on a 5.0L block being around 3,500 which he did the work himself, add a couple k and a refreshed, not rebuilt shortblock would be around 5500.

How far does one have to go to be safe with a shortblock change?

Reply Like

Reply Share

First
Prev
3 / 7
Next
Last

Forum Jump