GaryJ

Hi Greg:

I will answer your questions as you posed them:

So, let's simplify this into basic details, so we can get our head around it:

Rebuilt engine with 1200 miles on it. Builder drove it 900, you drove it 300. Correct

No issues, other than a small oil leakage around a head gasket, leaving small drips of oil in garage. I didn't lift the car to see exactly where the oil was coming from but the oil patch on the ground was wide and he told me that was because the oil was being blown back and was coating the entire bottom of the engine,, since the patch was so wide and drips were coming from all over the place it was hard to tell exactly where the oil was coming from, although it was annoying for a new engine he it wasn't using a lot of oil and he said it should be easy to fix when if bring it back for a check up I have a picture of my garage floor that I can send you but I am not set up with a URL to post the picture here.

Full of oil. Confirmed by both owner and mechanic? Mechanic when he brought the car to me and by me topping up just above the full line before I began the first track session.

Runs for 20-30 minutes in a warm-up session with an instructor in the car. Yes

No smoke/no black flag. Correct

Engine fails. Correct

Is this correct? Yes

Couple more questions:

Had the oil/filter been changed in these 1200 miles? It is my understanding it was changed at around the 900 mile mark just before he delivered the car to me.

Did anyone look under the car after parking it from the practice session and noting that there was no oil? You can't leak 5 quarts of oil out of a 928 engine and not have oil all over the underside of the car. Even a hole in the very bottom of the oil pan will fly back and completely cover the chassis, if the car is moving. There was oil all over the bottom of the engine and it dripped a little bit on the ground but it certainly didn't gush out and there wasn't a puddle.

At this point he already said the cometics gasket didn't cover one area where the oil could spill out so maybe it was the wrong gasket all together but I would still like to know where all that oil went. Unless I dumped it on the track before they had a chance to flag me I cant imagine where it went.

Thanks for you interest in my problem.

Gary

__________________

GregBBRD

I re-read your introduction.

Between the first warm-up session and the second faster session did you check the oil level?

Send the picture to GregBBRD@aol.com.

GaryJ

Hi Greg:

No I didn't check the oil between sessions but the first session was not much in the way of aggressive driving, not near as aggressive as the driving I had done the weekend before with the 928 group and I didn't loose much oil on that jaunt.

If the cometics gasket was the wrong one and didn't seal some chamber as my mechanic said could the oil escape under pressure or end up somewhere else besides being burnt or dumping out, or if it didn't seal the one chamber what else may it not have been sealing. And as I said it could have dumped out on the track all of a sudden and they didn't have time to flag me off since I had already taken myself off. I was not down on power until I was pulling off the track.

I don't have the picture at home with me, I will send you the picture from my office tomorrow.

Thanks,

Gary

GregBBRD

Tough situation.

1. You should not be running a car on the track that has an obvious undiagnosed oil/fluid loss problem....there is no way to know if the "leak" is going to turn into a "gusher"....as it obviously did.
If your mechanic told you to proceed, you both made mistakes. There is always "another" weekend.
2. If you both decide that it is ok to go ahead and run the car (which I can't understand)...someone should be watching the oil/fluid loss volume like a hawk...checking it at every chance. Actually, that is something that should be done on any engine....much less a brand new engine....at every chance. Open the hood and check things over after every session. Look under the car. Never assume. Check everything.
3. All that being said, there is very little logic in delivering an engine after a 900 mile break-in period that has an obvious flaw. If the problem did not "go away" in 900 miles....it certainly isn't going to get better, after that. I'm not sure I've ever driven a vehicle more than a couple of hundred miles after a rebuild. I have run engines with Cometic head gaskets through 3-4 heat cycles to get them to seal water. Oil sealing itself is never going to happen....
4. Talk logically to the mechanic and review the problem at length. Find out what you did wrong, from his point of view. Tell him what he did wrong, from your point of view. Good, honest mechanics will always bend over backwards to protect their reputation.
5. No one is perfect. Nothing is perfect. You have to be able to use common sense to protect yourself everyday. Cars are not an exception to this...they are more the rule.

GaryJ

Hi Greg:

I will respond again as you asked them.

Thanks you for your opinion I have the utmost respect for you and first talked to you at your shop in the early 90's and you gave me terrific advice then too.

1. You should not be running a car on the track that has an obvious undiagnosed oil/fluid loss problem....there is no way to know if the "leak" is going to turn into a "gusher"....as it obviously did.
If your mechanic told you to proceed, you both made mistakes. There is always "another" weekend.
You are of course correct, I did contact the mechanic and sent him the picture I will send you tomorrow. He said I should be fine and since he has built so many engines and is often away working the pits for some of the big races, Sebring and Daytona, I took him at his word since his experience is way superior to mine plus he built the engine I thought he would know it best.
2. If you both decide that it is ok to go ahead and run the car (which I can't understand)...someone should be watching the oil/fluid loss volume like a hawk...checking it at every chance. Actually, that is something that should be done on any engine....much less a brand new engine....at every chance. Open the hood and check things over after every session. Look under the car. Never assume. Check everything. Your are correct and I obviously kick myself now for not checking then but I think this happened very suddenly and may not of shown any symptoms of oil loss after the first session but we will never know since I didn't do that. I did open the hood and look around after the first session but didn't check the oil level since it wasn't an aggressive session and I had driven much more aggressively the weekend before with less than 1/2 quart oil loss and that was for a few hours. There were a few drops of oil on the ground under the car but they were in keeping with what I had seen on my garage floor.
3. All that being said, there is very little logic in delivering an engine after a 900 mile break-in period that has an obvious flaw. If the problem did not "go away" in 900 miles....it certainly isn't going to get better, after that. I'm not sure I've ever driven a vehicle more than a couple of hundred miles after a rebuild. I have run engines with Cometic head gaskets through 3-4 heat cycles to get them to seal water. Oil sealing itself is never going to happen.... Not much I can say to that and was my feeling when I noticed the drops on my garage floor.
4. Talk logically to the mechanic and review the problem at length. Find out what you did wrong, from his point of view. Tell him what he did wrong, from your point of view. Good, honest mechanics will always bend over backwards to protect their reputation. I will definitely give that a go and I have always been very reasonable with him even during the long delays without communication. Given what you know to this point what would be a reasonable offer for me to make to allow him to finish the job and maintain, what was before this, his good reputation. Coming from the mechanics point of view will be helpful for me to try and resolve this in a reasonable and efficient manner.
5. No one is perfect. Nothing is perfect. You have to be able to use common sense to protect yourself everyday. Cars are not an exception to this...they are more the rule. I do understand this and have gotten over my original emotional reaction that he should be fixing it at no cost to me. At this point it is going to cost me something to fix and I am resolved to that, I sill think that fixing it with him should be my fastest and most cost effective option. But I am definitely looking at other options, it took him an entire year to finally call me back and tell me that we have to do a new build so I am a little slow to trust everything he is telling me.

Thanks,

Gary
__________________

GregBBRD

My thoughts are in red.

Mike Simard

The oil loss doesn't make sense to me.
I've driven one that was blasting out so much oil I had a constant smoke cloud and a talkin' to by the race director. That went on all weekend and I didn't add many quarts of oil. I just tie-wrapped some absorbant cloth to the bottom of the engine and kept on going back out with little oil in the crankcase. GB would have been spinning on his eyeballs

Are you sure about your oil level measurements? Maybe you had an old fashioned engine problem that didn't have anything to do with oil. Even the ticking sound could be from hot oil and not a real problem.
I'm stumped, it sounds like a good mystery that requires oogling some engine parts.

GaryJ

Hi Mike:

It is definitely a strange thing and I don't know where the oil went and the mechanic has no answers for that either. It was definitely way down on oil, even after I added the three quarts of oil at the track or four if you count the original quart at the beginning of the day the mechanic said there wasn't much oil in it when he took it a part. Which at first confused me but I guess if the engine was truly drained of oil even though I filled it so it would register on the stick once there were still plenty of areas that usually have oil in it that were empty.

It is very strange and I have to believe there is something obvious but the mechanic is not being forthcoming with the information.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Gary

GaryJ

Hi Greg:

Thanks again for your input.


1. You should not be running a car on the track that has an obvious undiagnosed oil/fluid loss problem....there is no way to know if the "leak" is going to turn into a "gusher"....as it obviously did.
If your mechanic told you to proceed, you both made mistakes. There is always "another" weekend.
You are of course correct, I did contact the mechanic and sent him the picture I will send you tomorrow. He said I should be fine and since he has built so many engines and is often away working the pits for some of the big races, Sebring and Daytona, I took him at his word since his experience is way superior to mine plus he built the engine I thought he would know it best. Seems like you did your part, here. I'd still suggest you not do this, in the future. Most definitely there is a lesson learned here for me.
2. If you both decide that it is ok to go ahead and run the car (which I can't understand)...someone should be watching the oil/fluid loss volume like a hawk...checking it at every chance. Actually, that is something that should be done on any engine....much less a brand new engine....at every chance. Open the hood and check things over after every session. Look under the car. Never assume. Check everything. Your are correct and I obviously kick myself now for not checking then but I think this happened very suddenly and may not of shown any symptoms of oil loss after the first session but we will never know since I didn't do that. I did open the hood and look around after the first session but didn't check the oil level since it wasn't an aggressive session and I had driven much more aggressively the weekend before with less than 1/2 quart oil loss and that was for a few hours. There were a few drops of oil on the ground under the car but they were in keeping with what I had seen on my garage floor. Seems like you did most of your part here, too. Your logic is good. Any change on the volume of the oil leak should have showed up on the ground. Thanks,
3. All that being said, there is very little logic in delivering an engine after a 900 mile break-in period that has an obvious flaw. If the problem did not "go away" in 900 miles....it certainly isn't going to get better, after that. I'm not sure I've ever driven a vehicle more than a couple of hundred miles after a rebuild. I have run engines with Cometic head gaskets through 3-4 heat cycles to get them to seal water. Oil sealing itself is never going to happen.... Not much I can say to that and was my feeling when I noticed the drops on my garage floor. I have no additional thoughts on this, since it makes little sense. Agreed
4. Talk logically to the mechanic and review the problem at length. Find out what you did wrong, from his point of view. Tell him what he did wrong, from your point of view. Good, honest mechanics will always bend over backwards to protect their reputation. I will definitely give that a go and I have always been very reasonable with him even during the long delays without communication. Given what you know to this point what would be a reasonable offer for me to make to allow him to finish the job and maintain, what was before this, his good reputation. Coming from the mechanics point of view will be helpful for me to try and resolve this in a reasonable and efficient manner. There are always two sides of every story. We are obviously only getting your side, here. If you are anywhere near complete/accurate on what happened, you should have no problem prevailing. I am not consciously leaving anything out and the time line is easily verifiable, it will be interesting to see if after we have the talk the way you suggest he says it is my fault and I simply let the car run out of oil which is his position at this point
5. No one is perfect. Nothing is perfect. You have to be able to use common sense to protect yourself everyday. Cars are not an exception to this...they are more the rule. I do understand this and have gotten over my original emotional reaction that he should be fixing it at no cost to me. At this point it is going to cost me something to fix and I am resolved to that, I sill think that fixing it with him should be my fastest and most cost effective option. But I am definitely looking at other options, it took him an entire year to finally call me back and tell me that we have to do a new build so I am a little slow to trust everything he is telling me.
That everyone should understand. We all have failures. I usually am so bothered by things that don't work correctly that I drop everything and take them apart asap, so I don't understand why it would just set there. Perhaps this part of the story has some missing details. What he said to me is that once he saw the pieces of bearing on the drain plug he was so frustrated that the engine was gone after all the work he had put into it he couldn't bring himself to work on it. I can understand the frustration but why the lack of communication for an entire year, he made no attempt to explain this.
Thanks,

Gary

BC

I have had situations when oil disappeared - but it had severe, immediate evidence. To have the oil level go from above the top line to not on the stick, IIRC, is about 6 or more quarts, right Greg?

The times this has happened, an oil line blew and it all came out in 30 seconds. I cleaned it up from the road for two hours because it was in my neighborhood street infront of my house.

The other time was when I did a high speed run in a two valve car with stock breather routing. It ate 4 quarts in about 3 hours of speeds over 95. It was over filled a bit and had no oil on the dipstick after that run.

I don't see how it could have NO evidence of burning or losing large amounts of oil.

GaryJ

Hi BC:

The best I can think is that the car let go of the oil earlier in the lap and I noticed the warbling noise that caused me to exit the track but I never made it back the the area of the track the oil blew out on so they didn't have a chance the flag me.

At this point the mechanic is telling me there is no evidence of anything wrong with the engine to cause the oil loss and that I simple ran the car out of oil.

I checked the oil at the beginning of the track day and with less that 30 minutes of pretty easy track time the car was toast. I only had the car 3 weeks and put on about 300 miles, there had to be a catastrophic loss at some point and I would think there would be evidence of that when the engine was torn down. The mechanic claims there was no evidence of anything wrong with the engine that would cause it to loose oil, at this point I am a little skeptical he is being completely honest with me.

It is as confusing to me as it is to you.

Thank you for your input.

Gary

Bill Ball

Yep, if they aren't torqued properly. The multilayer metal ones need to be torqued and re-torqued. We did that on Kibort's motor and the gasket is fine. On another motor that was assembled by torquing the Cometics once (not by me), the head gasket leaked oil.

Anyway, as to the oil loss on this car, the only place besides the ground that comes to mind is the valley, but it only hold a quart or two at most.

GaryJ

Hi Bill:

It must have let go on the track all of a sudden. When I was putting oil in after the incident I didn't notice any oil in the valley. I guess the head gasket could have failed but he drove it quite a bit before he gave ti to me so i would think he had ample time to re-torque. I am also concerned that he admitted the gasket was the wrong shape to cover one of the oil channels so what else wasn't it sealing properly.

Thanks for your input.

Gary

GaryJ

Hi Sterling:

So you understand why I am a little skeptical he is being completely honest with me.

The oil light did not come on until I came to a stop at the entrance to the pits. Actually I wasn't down on power that I could tell but I wasn't pushing that hard either,the only reason I was leaving the track was for a faint warbling sound that I thought might be a loose wheel or something. When I came to a stop at the pit entrance that is when the oil light came on and the oil pressure went away.

Thanks,

Gary

BC

Okay - assuming this is true - that you lost that oil on the track. Over 6 quarts lets say. Hot engine. Hot exhaust. We have to use Rationality and Logic and state that:

1) Hot engines exist while racing.
2) Oil coming out of engine on tracks will have air-induced splatter.
3) If Oil splatters on hot engine objects such as exhaust or even later exhaust areas, it will smoke.
4) If there is enough heat, it will smoke, nearly catch fire, and smell really heavy.

There are pictures of a 944 turbo who had an engine issue where oil came out rapidly - it caused a HUGE fireball caught in pictures. Even if oil seeps slowly onto headers, it smokes and smells.

So where did the oil go? If it was burned in the chamber at a fast rate, but not burned enough at once to cause a smoke screen, then the engine may have had real issues.

I over filled a 2V car once. By about a quart or so. Upon an uphill climb and high revs - I created a smoke screen over 2 blocks long out the tail pipe. Thick oil smoke. I stopped - and it was still overfilled. That 2 block smoke screen only burned about .5 of a quart.