SeanR

With the amount of header wrap that I saw on the Texas Stroker (Joes) I don't think there will be any leak issues at the collector. It looked like a work of art, and these are look much better.

GregBBRD

No matter how one goes about building a header, there seems to always be compromises. It is a matter of trying to cram a whole bunch of larger pipes into a little space. Because I wanted the collectors to be very far forward and I wanted the pipes to be a certain length, for various reasons, this made this particular job very, very difficult. Move that collector back 6" and things quickly get easier....but you have to give up something to get that.

I don't think there will ever be a set of headers made that make getting to the hardware easy...that's a true oxymoron. Easy is also a point of view, however. What is easy for me, might not be easy for someone else. Of course, owning dozens of different tools that enable me to tighten a 13mm nut dozens of different ways, makes things easier. I don't think there is any doubt that these headers will be a real pisser for someone that owns a Craftsman 6 point socket set in 1/2" drive and a set of Craftsman wrenches...but I'll try and figure out what people need, before we "unleash" these things on "do it yourself" guy.

Mark Anderson had/has a set of headers that require them to be virtually removed to gain access to the bell housing (clutch) lower cover. This is a major pain in the butt and was one of the things that I wanted to avoid. However, tucking the headers up, so that the undertrays would fit was something very important, to me. Combine these two things and we really had no choice but to keep the collector as a separate piece. (Note you can slide the collectors off to get to the clutch/flexplate.)

I've noticed, over the years, that high quality stainless allows a very tight fit for the collector to the pipes. Since stainless doesn't rust, the tolerance between these pieces can be much tighter than when you are using mild steel that rusts. This is one of the major reasons that I chose this material to build these pipes out of. I'm not anticipating leakage problems, in this area, because of that reason, alone.

There are already several different header systems available, for the 928. However, each one of these systems provided us with their own set of problems. This set of pipes is not intended to replace any of those other versions. It will simply be another alternative to what is already out there. My "target" market is the person who wants the really high quality equal length, hand built, tig welded, stainless pipes that are built from current design exhaust programs. If someone wants cheap, mig welded, ancient design, unequal length headers....these pipes will not satisfy that person.

hacker-pschorr

+1

I would be tempted to buy two sets just to hang one on the wall. Work of art!!

IcemanG17

WOW great looking headers!!!!

They will be stunning in stainless!!!

S4ordie

Long lasting hose and now pipe. Greg you are a stud to be sure.

BTW - spooled past your shop on my way through the OC this morning. Thought you or one of your guys might be fiddling on something on Sunday. No luck. Took a nap in the Hybrid Civic in the alley. Anaheim's finest woke me up and wondered what I was doing. After a lengthy discussion they shooed me on my way. See you on the morrow.

GregBBRD

[QUOTE=Darklands;7433186]Greg,

are you building this headers for early 5 L S 3 engines with the 2 bolt fastening design?

Thanks in advance ![/QUOTE

Truthfully, engineering and building them for the later cars has been so difficult that I really need to get these finished, tested, and installed, before thinking about the early engines. (We are building ten sets, initially...seven of which already have fairly "anxious" homes.) We will certainly fit them and see what we need to change to get two bolt flanges, for the early engines...but that will be a couple of months, from now. It will also greatly depend on how many people express an interest.

We will need to run all the early engine data through a computer to see what these engines need, for pipe length and diameter. How big is your engine and what do you have for camshafts?

hacker-pschorr

Greg, that is 100% understandable. But, IIRC the Devek Level 2 headers had a "universal" flange that allowed them to be used on both engines. I'm trying to find a photo...around here somewhere.

I guess I'm hoping (along with other 2-flange owners) these will fit with just a flange change.....

blown 87

[QUOTE=GregBBRD;7434394]Are you building these for your big motors?

I would think that a stroker would maybe need bigger pipes than a 5.0.
I know from building BBC's that it is the whole combo that determines header selection.

One thing is for sure, these are not going to be for folks on a "Headman" budget.

ptuomov

I thought your target market for these headers would be people who've got your 6.5L stroker with your cams and heads in it. My novice guess is that it's a complete crap shoot whether headers designed for a certain cam, head, and displacement combination work with anything else.

GregBBRD

We can both hope that. I didn't specifically try to accomplish that, however.

GregBBRD

[QUOTE=blown 87;7434423]Didn't even try to make these for the "Headman" budget guys....I think that MSDS does that.

GregBBRD

No doubt that was the primary application. We have certainly "hit a wall" with the current systems we've tried. Note that we have not tried everything out there...some of the stuff we simply rejected due to obvious issues.

However, it is amazing to see that the pipe needs don't change all that much when you add displacement....or take it away. These pipes look like they will certainly work great in a warmed up 5.0 or 5.4....we will have dyno results on both, in the next few weeks....that will answer any questions regarding this.

ptuomov

Dyno experiments always trump theory and simulations.

Of course, more existing experimental data you have, the more accurate your simulations. Trying this from a clean sheet of paper, it would be very difficult to guess how much blow thru the heads let by compared to other 4-valve heads -- even with the same cam profiles.

Did you simulate 4-2-1 systems or only 4-1 systems? 4-2-1 ought to give some benefits in theory, because of the uneven firing order.

GregBBRD

Since there was absolutely no way to get a proper 4-2-1 system into that little space, I gave up on it.

slate blue

By Greg BBRD
Oh well there is a challenge, that is what I plan on doing, (if possible) hence the avatar of the pipes I already own. I have done some basic mock ups, it certainly tight. You can get mock up pipes for planning, just like Lego. Where the pipes expand is under the car.

Also from one of the few members who have actually built headers for a 928 and from stainless to boot with slip on collectors, they have complete access to the clutch, even all the bolts for the clutch cover are accessable and as I mentioned get the nuts off on the driver's side and stand back it will fall out on the floor. The passengers side is not as good. With more planning it could be sorted too.

So what I take from that is with a 4-2-1 system with slip on collectors is that while it will be tight the step by step assembly process should allow it to fit, time will tell. If it does fit it will have advantages especially on my big cammed two valve engine. I have that directly from the builders of the Gibbs headers who spent quite a bit of time with me regarding my system, this system though is a mega buck system and would never be saleable.

Cheers Greg