Timing Belt / Tensioner Recommendation
02-24-2010, 03:52 AM
#257
Nordschleife Master
Well I am not sure how I managed to miss this thread in the past.
However I would like to add a comment regarding the reverse cycling of the engine, and the coughing.
I have the Pkensioner on all my cars.
As well I have installed it on many others.
However I have also installed standalone EFI on one of these engines and there is always some coughing when starting the engine. Sometimes it is due to fueling issues, sometime trigger issues. But if you ignite the mixture too soon the engine will reverse.
I can say with certainty that the tensioner utilized does not allow for enough compression for the engine to be able to skip a tooth even with the "rubber band" conti belt.
The other thing that I can say has happened is going to a fellows car with the tensioner installed and for reasons I will not get into, the engine was being spun backwards while cranking.
the tensioner never did allow the belt to get loose enough to jump teeth.
Now I also do not tend to heed warnings all the time.
I spin my engines CCW with a socket on occasion, upto 1/4-1/2 rotation. And can again attest that the Porkensioner has never let the belt get loose enough to skip teeth.
But then again, I do all my belt changes at TDC as the amount of rotation needed to do damage to the valves is actually rather large.
The other thing to note is that I installed one of the first batch of tensioners on my car. Everyone who knows me knows that I drive hard. I tracked the car as well, ran it for 3 -4 years with no belt covers (32V engine). And I have never had ANY problems with the system. On that car I cannot be 100% certain, but I am sure that I had at least 40k miles on it. I drove it to Louis house. Up to prince george and steward (in BC). A couple trips to Prince george were in the middle of the winter and the car experianced -45 C BEFORE wind chill. So I would say that I have done the hardest testing of the unit possible, and have run into no trouble.
I do think that periodic checking is required to ensure that the tensioner is still working.
However I have one comment with regards to those who wish to have the stock warning system still intact.
When the warning has notified you of something going wrong. What part was the one that had issues?
In my experiance it is almost always the pivot bolt on the pump. Those with waterpump problems the system has not saved you. So it cannot predict the upcoming failure of that as they tend to fail rapidly.
However to those of you that state no car in the last 20 years doesnt have a warning light for the timing belt. You are incorrect. I know of at least a couple toyotas that do. But if you search the net I am sure you will find that the only time that light has come on is once it is too late, and they have ALL been well past the recommending change interavel.
However I would like to add a comment regarding the reverse cycling of the engine, and the coughing.
I have the Pkensioner on all my cars.
As well I have installed it on many others.
However I have also installed standalone EFI on one of these engines and there is always some coughing when starting the engine. Sometimes it is due to fueling issues, sometime trigger issues. But if you ignite the mixture too soon the engine will reverse.
I can say with certainty that the tensioner utilized does not allow for enough compression for the engine to be able to skip a tooth even with the "rubber band" conti belt.
The other thing that I can say has happened is going to a fellows car with the tensioner installed and for reasons I will not get into, the engine was being spun backwards while cranking.
the tensioner never did allow the belt to get loose enough to jump teeth. Now I also do not tend to heed warnings all the time.
I spin my engines CCW with a socket on occasion, upto 1/4-1/2 rotation. And can again attest that the Porkensioner has never let the belt get loose enough to skip teeth.
But then again, I do all my belt changes at TDC as the amount of rotation needed to do damage to the valves is actually rather large.
The other thing to note is that I installed one of the first batch of tensioners on my car. Everyone who knows me knows that I drive hard. I tracked the car as well, ran it for 3 -4 years with no belt covers (32V engine). And I have never had ANY problems with the system. On that car I cannot be 100% certain, but I am sure that I had at least 40k miles on it. I drove it to Louis house. Up to prince george and steward (in BC). A couple trips to Prince george were in the middle of the winter and the car experianced -45 C BEFORE wind chill. So I would say that I have done the hardest testing of the unit possible, and have run into no trouble.
I do think that periodic checking is required to ensure that the tensioner is still working.
However I have one comment with regards to those who wish to have the stock warning system still intact.
When the warning has notified you of something going wrong. What part was the one that had issues?
In my experiance it is almost always the pivot bolt on the pump. Those with waterpump problems the system has not saved you. So it cannot predict the upcoming failure of that as they tend to fail rapidly.
However to those of you that state no car in the last 20 years doesnt have a warning light for the timing belt. You are incorrect. I know of at least a couple toyotas that do. But if you search the net I am sure you will find that the only time that light has come on is once it is too late, and they have ALL been well past the recommending change interavel.
02-24-2010, 01:13 PM
#259
Nordschleife Master
I was using a Toyota hilux (turbo diesel) over in europe. The vehicle was in Albania but was origonally from iirc India. It had a "toothed belt warning"
02-24-2010, 01:55 PM
#261
Nordschleife Master
No no, sold in india too. Just ahem driven across the border.....
btw all offroad trucks should have SCers NOT turbos. The lag made the trucks USELESS offroad.
btw all offroad trucks should have SCers NOT turbos. The lag made the trucks USELESS offroad.
02-24-2010, 02:20 PM
#262
Inventor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Colin - were you working for Halliburton on the Albanian job? 
02-25-2010, 03:44 AM
#265
Former Vendor
Well...
We're done with our "investigation" of the Porken tensioner. Here's what I found out...if anyone cares.
Pretty clever piece. Perhaps a viable alternative for the owner who thinks the whole belt tensioning/retensioning thing is hard and doesn't have the proper tools or doesn't want to pay/be responsible for tensioning the belt....only time will tell. Certainly, the reports from happy customers seem to be very good, so that speaks volumes!
The unit we had tensioned the belt at 3.6 to 3.7 "Porsche Belt Units", while the factory wants the belt to be tensioned at 5.0 to 5.2 "Belt Units". Experience has shown us that the "belt tensioner" idiot light will come on at somewhere right around the 3.5 area. We know that cam gear wear significantly increases when the belts are run this loose, but the fact that the Porken unit compensates for belt "slack gathering" (will discuss this further) confuses the whole thing. Only time will tell how the cam gears wear, with Porken's tensioner, over the period of a 100,000 miles.
The quality of the unit seems very good. The construction is robust and should last for quite a few years. The one I was given to inspect had really high grade hardware (10.9) everywhere, except the main pivot bolt on the lever arm, which was a 8.8 bolt. Never could figure out why this main bolt was of "lower" quality than the rest, but perhaps the 10.9 hardware is just overkill. I studied this for quite some time...wondering if the 8.8 bolt was designed to be the "weakest" link and fail there (a fuse, if you will), should anything go wrong, but that made no sense. In the end, I simply walked over and changed this bolt out for a 10.9 bolt and moved on.
I initially questioned the advertised "simplicity" of the unit, as it actually has way more bushings/potential wear spots than the stock Porsche tensioner....but trying to figure this out just seemed futile. Certainly, Porken's bushing are made of better material than the Porsche bushings and this is a good thing. (The Porsche bushing are made from a non-metalic material, so that the "belt tensioner idiot light" can work and they do wear...but over a long period of time.) I suspect that the bushings in the Porken unit will also last a long time. I was intriqued that there were no instructions for lubrication of any of the bushings. Certainly, some of the bushings are made of a material that has some built in lubrication qualities, but not all seemed to be made of this material. In the end, I decided to put high pressure grease on all the bushings...hope this doesn't hurt anything!
It occured to me that while the stock Porsche replacement bushing/pieces will certainly be available for a long period of time into the future, there was not a parts list of replacement pieces for the Porken tensioner, when things are needed, in the future. Since the bushings were already installed into all the bearings and fulcrums that were provided separately, I assume that replacement bushing only come with the complete bearing/fulcrum, if available at all. Guess we will find out how these items are to be provided when someone gets enough miles on one of these tensioners to have worn parts.
Perhaps Ken will provide some insight on how he intends to supply wear items, into the future.
I'll continue this review tomorrow. (It gets kind of long.)
We're done with our "investigation" of the Porken tensioner. Here's what I found out...if anyone cares.
Pretty clever piece. Perhaps a viable alternative for the owner who thinks the whole belt tensioning/retensioning thing is hard and doesn't have the proper tools or doesn't want to pay/be responsible for tensioning the belt....only time will tell. Certainly, the reports from happy customers seem to be very good, so that speaks volumes!
The unit we had tensioned the belt at 3.6 to 3.7 "Porsche Belt Units", while the factory wants the belt to be tensioned at 5.0 to 5.2 "Belt Units". Experience has shown us that the "belt tensioner" idiot light will come on at somewhere right around the 3.5 area. We know that cam gear wear significantly increases when the belts are run this loose, but the fact that the Porken unit compensates for belt "slack gathering" (will discuss this further) confuses the whole thing. Only time will tell how the cam gears wear, with Porken's tensioner, over the period of a 100,000 miles.
The quality of the unit seems very good. The construction is robust and should last for quite a few years. The one I was given to inspect had really high grade hardware (10.9) everywhere, except the main pivot bolt on the lever arm, which was a 8.8 bolt. Never could figure out why this main bolt was of "lower" quality than the rest, but perhaps the 10.9 hardware is just overkill. I studied this for quite some time...wondering if the 8.8 bolt was designed to be the "weakest" link and fail there (a fuse, if you will), should anything go wrong, but that made no sense. In the end, I simply walked over and changed this bolt out for a 10.9 bolt and moved on.
I initially questioned the advertised "simplicity" of the unit, as it actually has way more bushings/potential wear spots than the stock Porsche tensioner....but trying to figure this out just seemed futile. Certainly, Porken's bushing are made of better material than the Porsche bushings and this is a good thing. (The Porsche bushing are made from a non-metalic material, so that the "belt tensioner idiot light" can work and they do wear...but over a long period of time.) I suspect that the bushings in the Porken unit will also last a long time. I was intriqued that there were no instructions for lubrication of any of the bushings. Certainly, some of the bushings are made of a material that has some built in lubrication qualities, but not all seemed to be made of this material. In the end, I decided to put high pressure grease on all the bushings...hope this doesn't hurt anything!
It occured to me that while the stock Porsche replacement bushing/pieces will certainly be available for a long period of time into the future, there was not a parts list of replacement pieces for the Porken tensioner, when things are needed, in the future. Since the bushings were already installed into all the bearings and fulcrums that were provided separately, I assume that replacement bushing only come with the complete bearing/fulcrum, if available at all. Guess we will find out how these items are to be provided when someone gets enough miles on one of these tensioners to have worn parts.
Perhaps Ken will provide some insight on how he intends to supply wear items, into the future.
I'll continue this review tomorrow. (It gets kind of long.)
02-25-2010, 07:11 AM
#266
Drifting
The lever bolt on the pivot arm is the bolt that is supplied from the manufacturer of the pivot arm. What bushings are you talking about with the PorKen? Are you sure you have the same product that everyone else has? Because when I got mine a few years ago it contained everything pictured in the instructions, and I saw nothing resembling a bushing in the instructions. Did you receive the instructions? Did you read the instructions? Something that is clearly obvious to the rest of us is clearly not obvious to you. The serviceable parts of the PorKen are all available through Audi/VW and countless other vendors. I'm just not sure which fulcrums and bushings you're talking about.
02-25-2010, 08:26 AM
#267
Nordschleife Master
Agreed with above post.
All the rollers/bushings/pivot/tensioner come preassembled and ready to bolt on from Audi with no lubrication required (at least, not according to Audi workshop manual - I used the same parts on my old 30V V6 Audi for its TBWP job a few years ago).
The total set of parts provided by Ken are these:
(was going to list the contents of the box on my desk - one of the original straight-from-Ken kits before Roger sold them.. then found this pic on Ken's site which is exactly what I have here).
All the rollers/bushings/pivot/tensioner come preassembled and ready to bolt on from Audi with no lubrication required (at least, not according to Audi workshop manual - I used the same parts on my old 30V V6 Audi for its TBWP job a few years ago).
The total set of parts provided by Ken are these:
(was going to list the contents of the box on my desk - one of the original straight-from-Ken kits before Roger sold them.. then found this pic on Ken's site which is exactly what I have here).
02-25-2010, 08:50 AM
#268
I'm a bit confused about the results you got with tension. Each one I've done and rechecked with both the Porsche tool and the Kempf tool were at spec. On the directions it tells to take a 6mm (i think) key and pre-tension the belt. To be on the safe side I always rotate the engine many times (with the starter from the 14 pin connector) and tension is always close to the same. +/- a few points.
As said above, what bushings and wear items are you talking about, the parts are easily replace able (roller, piston).
As said above, what bushings and wear items are you talking about, the parts are easily replace able (roller, piston).
02-25-2010, 10:42 AM
#269
Rennlist Member
Good post, Greg- Thank you!
The cast lever, roller and tensioner are all Audi parts, I don't think future supply is an issue. Those are also the only wear parts, and replacing them when the TB is replaced is not expensive and seems reasonable.
The grade 8.8 bolt is the one that secures the cast lever, correct? If I recall correctly that bolt is supplied with the lever itself, from Audi.
I also put some hi-temp grease on the lever pivot and roller bushing, seemed reasonable and the instructions didn't say not to
Here's Rob's thread on the install on his GT, some nice pictures.
https://rennlist.com/forums/5540367-post.html
The cast lever, roller and tensioner are all Audi parts, I don't think future supply is an issue. Those are also the only wear parts, and replacing them when the TB is replaced is not expensive and seems reasonable.
The grade 8.8 bolt is the one that secures the cast lever, correct? If I recall correctly that bolt is supplied with the lever itself, from Audi.
I also put some hi-temp grease on the lever pivot and roller bushing, seemed reasonable and the instructions didn't say not to
Here's Rob's thread on the install on his GT, some nice pictures.
https://rennlist.com/forums/5540367-post.html
02-25-2010, 02:21 PM
#270
Nordschleife Master
All of the pivots/rolling that occours on the parts require no lubrication because of the materials properties. This is to say that they are self lubrication.
I would not bother to prelube, and if I did, I would simply use a shot of dry graphite lube.
After 40k plus on my car I saw no wear on the cam gears at all.
I used the sound method of checking belt tension, which I know Greg would have a heart attack if he saw and it has always kept the belt tension perfect compared to the stock tensioner.
If you are wanting to check the belt tension with the Porkensioner installed using the factory tool, or the kemph, you really need to find a piece of material to put between the pivot arm, and the body of the hydraulic tensioner to prevent its retraction. Only then will these tools be able to show what it holds the belt at. Otherwise it will compensate for the additional force in the belt.
And the parts will always be availible, and at very reasonable prices.
I would not bother to prelube, and if I did, I would simply use a shot of dry graphite lube.
After 40k plus on my car I saw no wear on the cam gears at all.
I used the sound method of checking belt tension, which I know Greg would have a heart attack if he saw
and it has always kept the belt tension perfect compared to the stock tensioner. If you are wanting to check the belt tension with the Porkensioner installed using the factory tool, or the kemph, you really need to find a piece of material to put between the pivot arm, and the body of the hydraulic tensioner to prevent its retraction. Only then will these tools be able to show what it holds the belt at. Otherwise it will compensate for the additional force in the belt.
And the parts will always be availible, and at very reasonable prices.